Author Topic: Black fish, three fin vs. one  (Read 16013 times)

PonoBill

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2016, 03:03:45 PM »
Who won between you two?   :)
b

Im fat and old, he's not. It doesn't always come down to fins. I dont remember that but it doesnt surprise me.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

pdxmike

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2016, 03:09:37 PM »
This gives me a chuckle, Pono, as I remember when I lined up next to you before the PPG start last year.  I believe your exact quote was:  "why'd you put all those fins on your board?" (but I can't capture the hint of disdain in your tone.)
If he asked me that, I'd say it worked for Nokia.

Eagle

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2016, 03:27:55 PM »
If you are not going straight up or down you get drifted sideways fast and it takes more effort than its worth to correct it.
Certainly turning with a ventral does take more effort - vs without.  So can appreciate in ocean current and reflected waves -> board control will be impacted.

There are times when we paddle upwind in breeze where it is very difficult to maintain an oblique course with a big tracking fin.  The nose becomes very reluctant to paddle input vs using a small fin.  So would expect considerably more difficulty with a ventral in place as you note.  Like anything -> pros and cons.  More stability and tracking vs too much tracking leading to instability.

pdx -  ;D
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Larry Allison

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2016, 03:29:39 PM »
Tried a LA 4 fin modified 25" BW Eradicator with only the ventral and small centre fins in place.  The board was extremely stable and very fast without the side twins.  Can see adding more fins if you really required crazy side to side stability on flat.  But in most cases - would just use the OEM single fin set-up for up down AW use.  The 25 is a nice stable board already.

NH was the original owner of the board before it was modified by a zoner.  Up in Squamish a year ago - Norm used that board with the OEM fin and he just planed and surfed that board with complete ease.  It was crazy to see how easy he pulled away from all of us.  And he told us he was slow compared to Connor and Kai.   :o

It's interesting how people react when a single fin does not work than when a multiple fin board does not work. Just like being over sized with a single fin it also happens in a multiple fin world. In the Sup world all or alot of companies sell you their surfboard fins and now even some windsurf companies even try selling you their windsurf fins. It has taken me 6 years to figure out Sup Specific fins for the Single fin world and now 4 years to dial in the multiple fin Sup World. I have wrote more specific descriptions on these fins if you follow me on Facebook you would have seen. Will be adding the write ups to my Website soon and Paddleboard Specialists will be very proactive with this understanding of Sup Fins also. Cris and Kevin at Paddleboard Specialists have spent some long communication time with me about alot of this stuff. Check out their page which will soon have a Ventral fin write up section. Pics below Surf Fin verses a similar Sup Fin wanna be then a Sup Specific Fin by me. If you take a similar Surf Fin and change the color and call it a Sup fin, does that make it a Sup Fin. Or changing the Rake and outline specific for Sup makes it a Sup fin.
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Larry Allison

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2016, 03:40:29 PM »
If you are not going straight up or down you get drifted sideways fast and it takes more effort than its worth to correct it.
Certainly turning with a ventral does take more effort - vs without.  So can appreciate in ocean current and reflected waves -> board control will be impacted.

There are times when we paddle upwind in breeze where it is very difficult to maintain an oblique course with a big tracking fin.  The nose becomes very reluctant to paddle input vs using a small fin.  So would expect considerably more difficulty with a ventral in place as you note.  Like anything -> pros and cons.  More stability and tracking vs too much tracking leading to instability.



pdx -  ;D

Sorry Eagle, Have to disagree with you about turning with a Ventral. Only if the Ventral is placed in the wrong place. Her you have 2 different people riding with a Ventral. One guy turning with ease and another riding with surfing with ease using a Ventral. I think it as to do with the mind set of the rider. If the rider is trying to find fault, then he will. But in the real world and 2000 happy riders later I don't hear this complaint from others using a Ventral.
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Eagle

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2016, 03:58:39 PM »
Have actually used your Elite from day one and still use it from time to time.  Also your Hybrid.  So can appreciate the differences between surf fins and SUP fins.  Norm also uses your Hybrid for DW runs from time to time.

No doubt a kick turn works - but in the ocean angling down and across DW waves - would expect problems.  Understand the 4 fin we paddled was based on your specs and dims and correctly placed.  It uses your fins.  Not doubting you have happy riders.  Just that there are pros and cons with most set-ups.

What do feel are cons?
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

Larry Allison

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2016, 04:07:53 PM »
If you are not going straight up or down you get drifted sideways fast and it takes more effort than its worth to correct it.
Certainly turning with a ventral does take more effort - vs without.  So can appreciate in ocean current and reflected waves -> board control will be impacted.

There are times when we paddle upwind in breeze where it is very difficult to maintain an oblique course with a big tracking fin.  The nose becomes very reluctant to paddle input vs using a small fin.  So would expect considerably more difficulty with a ventral in place as you note.  Like anything -> pros and cons.  More stability and tracking vs too much tracking leading to instability.

pdx -  ;D



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July 7, 2010 23:16
18 ft. Unlimited Bark SUP with Larry Allison Dagger concept
Here's a Ride Review by John Bowling the owner of this 18-ft./ 6-in. Unlimited Bark who lives and Paddles in the San Francisco Bay, which has some of the strongest currents and wind conditions.
___________________________________________________________________

Ride Review:
Gentlemen- It is with renewed confidence that after installing Larry's dual daggers on my 18'6" SUP Bark battleship, that I can actually navigate through wind, current and bump without wanting to shoot myself in the head! This is something I previously thought only possible with the addition of a full rudder system..... before Larry lent me a hand.
Let me just paint a quick picture for you of my experience before the addition of the mid-fin. This board was fast on the flats, in calm conditions, but it easily fell off course. It would yaw to the left or right, with the slightest bit of wind or current. And, the harder I paddled, the quicker I had to change sides too. I'd go for 6-10 mile paddles and find myself caught in squalls or currents in the San Francisco Bay pitching sideways, totally frustrated, just trying to get home with some sense of dignity. Joe Bark sympathized with me, but was reluctant to retrofit a rudder on the board while he was keeping pace with all his orders and referred me to Larry. It's cool, Joe! You are The MAN!
Larry's inline dagger, mid-fin concept gave my board the lateral stability I needed. I easily doubled the efficiency of my work. Now, I can easily fire off 10-20 sprint strokes on one side, before switching to the other side, to stay on course. This has preserved the glide and simplicity of a rudderless board, on a board simply to long to be rudderless otherwise. When conditions do get more than moderately challenging, I still have to hammer away to fight the drift, but I'm not cut to my knees, feeling like an (m)oaron! Thanks Larry, for all your help! I'm stoked! John
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Eagle

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2016, 04:17:02 PM »
What is your view comparing a 2 - 3 - or 4 fin with ventral set-up compared to a single Aercor for DW runs in the ocean?
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

Larry Allison

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2016, 04:57:23 PM »
What is your view comparing a 2 - 3 - or 4 fin with ventral set-up compared to a single Aercor for DW runs in the ocean?

Depends on water conditions. Anytime you have a strong bump running like a wave where power is coming from the back of you and less paddle power is needed then Aercor fin is the fin of choice for a skilled paddler. Now if you have the same condition with less skill and stability becomes a issue then a Triple no Ventral running small Twins 4by9 inch with a small kick fin. Or a GT Moray Fin which holds like a 8 1/2" but flexs small and reacts like a 6 " fin.

If you are open ocean in a DW situation with white cap peak chop then depending on the board again and if now you have more paddling power to drive you and less wave power then GT Moray again on low volume boards or Dolphin Pivot on high volume boards over 300 liters. In this situation you then would run larger twins 4by9 1/2" ellipticals no Ventral option.

If you are in open ocean or flat water surface from wind chop small ripples. Then Elliptical Twins with small Ventral for high volume boards over 280 liters or Stealth Small Twins for lower volume boards with small Ventral which would give you the forward push to maintain a nice glide.

Single fins have a very small range of function PERIOD. If you set your board up for flats and hit open ocean with conditions then your board feels small and you go swimming. If you set your board up for open ocean and hit flats, now your board feels like you are towing seaweed. But with Twins and Ventral assist your board moving from flat to open ocean then back have very little change with alot more positive than a single in feel and control.

Options is the name of the game Eagle. If your board comes as a single fin then you put the range of users in a small bracket. If your board comes as a Multiple fin set up then the user pool has widened dramatically.
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Eagle

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2016, 05:26:32 PM »
Interesting comments about the Aercor and GT Moray.  But this makes sense.  When we use our SIC 7.0 and get wave push from behind - the Aercor would probably be better.  But once we power up the SIC works perfectly.  The trick simply is to get up to speed and maintain it.  Conditions always change in the ocean and they are never static or consistent.

What does someone do when conditions in the ocean change when say on a 4 fin set-up -> and that becomes the wrong set-up?
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

Larry Allison

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2016, 05:57:32 PM »
Interesting comments about the Aercor and GT Moray.  But this makes sense.  When we use our SIC 7.0 and get wave push from behind - the Aercor would probably be better.  But once we power up the SIC works perfectly.  The trick simply is to get up to speed and maintain it.  Conditions always change in the ocean and they are never static or consistent.

What does someone do when conditions in the ocean change when say on a 4 fin set-up -> and that becomes the wrong set-up?

In ocean condition usually becomes more extreme away from shore than closer in some cases. But other times as higher tide comes in back wash will add another element to roll in the ocean with current wind. In which case 4 fin set-up would be the fin set up to weather thru and not get thrown off your board easily because the only thing that could become wrong is glide. The trade off is glide sacrifice over swimming.
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Larry Allison

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2016, 06:08:36 PM »
Have actually used your Elite from day one and still use it from time to time.  Also your Hybrid.  So can appreciate the differences between surf fins and SUP fins.  Norm also uses your Hybrid for DW runs from time to time.

No doubt a kick turn works - but in the ocean angling down and across DW waves - would expect problems.  Understand the 4 fin we paddled was based on your specs and dims and correctly placed.  It uses your fins.  Not doubting you have happy riders.  Just that there are pros and cons with most set-ups.

What do feel are cons?

The Cons: Never use a Hybrid plan shape at 59 sq inches along with a 7" rake for hold in a Downwind situation. That would be like towing seaweed and a nightmare to turn.

Pros: Use a GT Moray which has the same depth hold as the Hybrid at 39 sq inches and flexs small to feel like a 5" to 6" fin for glide and turning to catch the next bump.
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Larry Allison

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2016, 07:10:55 PM »
Does this translate to other boards? Or just the infinity Blackfish? Am I correct that Infinity has been using that set up for at least a couple years? If the board has been optimized for that fin set up the differences may not be  as dramatic on other designs.

Waiting for someone to make this comment: Supflorida, It's interesting how quick the market shifted from Displace to Planning. In simple term the Twins comes from the Simmons concept which is twin fin related. The surf industry used Simmons only in glass on form and then the finsystem users tried to change the wheel by claiming Simmons concept with non Simmons fins and design, ASS backwards.

Now we are in the Sup World same concept Simmons again, which is why Infinty gets it. The Phoenix Twin Models are from Surfing Roots of Simmons and so is the Infinity Blackfish which also revolves around Twins. So if other companies are following Infinity with planning designs it only makes sense that Twin Fins will come into play it they get it. But like I have seen, shapers are so quick to claim being right and being first. Let's see how long the other companies will try to find fault in Twins before they open their mind and think for a minute I get it and add Twins. It has taken 5 years to get here because one key factor Probox Finsystem is the only Finsystem that can carry a large base fin other have limitations. So we will see how long politics plays the role to the other board companies making the move to better their board options.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 07:23:41 PM by ProBox-Larry »
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Eagle

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2016, 08:50:00 PM »
Actually have used the Elite and Hybrid on the Dominator and SB Touring carbon pintail for DW.  Those fins added a lot of stability to those boards and helped in the early days.  We planed fine and stayed dry nearly all the time with those fins.  Could not turn well - but stayed dry.  Speed seemed ok as well.

As our skills improved - we purchased a Bullet 14V2 and M-14 as those boards made DW runs a breeze.  Soon we found that too much fin was a hindrance maneuvering across bumps.  So we switched to a smaller fin like the SIC 8.3.  We could catch many more bumps and go much faster - with more stability at speed.  That was an eye-opener.  Now we have progressed to an All Star 23 with a SIC 7.0 fin.  The board is stable and fast in speeds up to 15 kts.  All our boards are super stable already - with the All Star being the exception in steep cross and reflected chop.  So why go to a quad set-up?

Also is "glide" the only con to a 4 fin set-up?  Or is too much fin on a quad also a con - like using a Hybrid should never be used in a DW situation.  And what are your thoughts about those carbon SIC fins - good or bad for DW use?
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

Eagle

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Re: Black fish, three fin vs. one
« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2016, 09:04:47 PM »
Here are comments about the Hybrid for DW - "This fin is also becoming a favorite among downwinders, as it offers great tracking, but still offers the maneuverability they need to move from swell to swell."

http://www.supgladiator.com/racefins/
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

 


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