Author Topic: Hips and the drive.  (Read 8061 times)

Bean

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2016, 12:06:59 PM »
Great vid LB

Esteroali

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2016, 12:10:11 PM »
Wow more fuel to fire my obsessions over technique! The last video pretty much sums up a comparison of LC and CB.

mrbig

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2016, 01:18:34 PM »
Thanks Luc! Two threads on technique. Fun. All of the vids and discussions are pointing in a direction!

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« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 01:20:12 PM by mrbig »
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devon_sup_surf

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2016, 01:30:20 AM »
I'm pretty new to this- but anyone who lifts weights and has performed the "kettlebell swing" may agree with me it feels similar to this movement. Slight bend in the knees, sitting back a little to load up the hamstrings, and a thrust forwards with the hips whilst contracting the glutes/butt muscles.

Larry

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2016, 08:06:31 PM »
Hi All,

Although this thread hans't been active since August, i'd like to take a stab at explaining my thoughts on hip motion here but it's late and I'm off to bed.  I'll try to get some time to do it in the next week or so.  I've got lots of video of some of the top guys and, in all honesty, I think we're all trying to do the same thing but just end up doing it ways that work best for our own unique shapes, sizes, strengths, weakness and experience. 

I'll poke around in some of the other threads as well and see if there's anywhere I could contribute.  In the meantime, I'd like to post some new video to replace the old one people keep using as an example of my technique.  My technique has evolved over the last 5 years. 



Happy paddling.

Larry

Luc Benac

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2016, 08:20:57 PM »
Hi All,

Although this thread hans't been active since August, i'd like to take a stab at explaining my thoughts on hip motion here but it's late and I'm off to bed.  I'll try to get some time to do it in the next week or so.  I've got lots of video of some of the top guys and, in all honesty, I think we're all trying to do the same thing but just end up doing it ways that work best for our own unique shapes, sizes, strengths, weakness and experience. 

I'll poke around in some of the other threads as well and see if there's anywhere I could contribute.  In the meantime, I'd like to post some new video to replace the old one people keep using as an example of my technique.  My technique has evolved over the last 5 years. 



Happy paddling.

Larry

Perfect Larry, looking forward to your direct contribution.
I have been following all of this since the Connor's video, Travis' and Pukuea's and lately yours on Paddle Monster.
I have been confused but slowly a new stroke is starting to emerge for me but is by no means yet fixed both in my mind and in muscle memory. I do find yours and Travis very compatible.
My only problem is that I should be going a lot faster now :-) but I have seen improvements but small ones....bummer.
Cheers,
Luc
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Esteroali

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2016, 08:36:20 PM »
Waiting with bated breath.
I would to get a video analysis of my stroke from Paddle Monster to clear this issue up. It's been a slight obsession. 

Area 10

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2016, 09:55:01 PM »
That latest video from Larry shows a marvellous stroke, but one which looks very tiring. Could the average paddler maintain that for long? Inevitably the focus for Paddle Monster is on racing. But is it the case that the fastest stroke is also the most efficient? If your emphasis for instance was on speed over long distances, or the best speed/energy outlay ratio (eg. for touring), would you still paddle like this? If not, which parts of the stroke would you "de-tune" most?

All of us want to paddle with good technique, but only some of us want to paddle fastest. I think this is where Dave Kalama's old instructions were so appealing to so many of us: the emphasis was on efficiency rather than outright speed, largely because he was concentrating in his own paddling on long distances in inhospitable environments. I noticed that in his commentary for the PPG he returned to this issue, mentioning that the top athletes were so supremely fit that they could get away with techniques that emphasised outright speed rather than having to think about efficiency. They have energy to burn, whereas us lesser mortals are often trying to conserve ours.

Having recently shortened my paddle and improved my catch, I now find that I can go marginally faster. But I can only manage to go about half the distance I could previously before I'm out of gas. The percentage speed gain is much smaller than the percentage of extra energy required. Before, if I raced, I'd prefer long races, but now I'd have to pick ones that are far shorter. I suspect I have swapped speed for efficiency. I'm going consistently faster than ever before, and for (short) racing this is obviously useful. But I'm still not sure how much overall gain I've made given that I only race occasionally. The rest of the time I'm just getting tired quicker, with the GPS showing gains that only I'd really notice.

Maybe all I'm asking for is instruction on how techniques for endurance might differ from short format racing. Presumably in other disciplines there is a difference? Long distance runners don't run like sprinters, although there will be some features that will be shared.


Luc Benac

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2016, 10:15:45 PM »
Maybe all I'm asking for is instruction on how techniques for endurance might differ from short format racing. Presumably in other disciplines there is a difference? Long distance runners don't run like sprinters, although there will be some features that will be shared.

Very good point. I am mostly looking at my speed over a few km, indeed with the goal of improving efficiency to be able to paddle 20 km in a shorter time and without been totally knackered. I am not interested on maximum speed on a very short distance per say other than as a proof of a good technique. I have kind of assumed that both were going together and that the same stroke technique would get you there but when listening to Travis Grant he does make a note that his new technique is more demanding and that he reverse to his old one to save energy. I am still hoping to get to a reasonably fast stroke but also effective for a 20 km race/tour. It would be nice to get a clear distinction from experienced paddler like Larry between a "sprinting" stroke and a fast efficient stroke for longer distances.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 10:20:27 PM by Luc Benac »
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pdxmike

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2016, 11:08:39 PM »
Yes, great point.  Looking back on my sports--distance running, then swimming, then standup--what inspired me wasn't seeing people going fast, but seeing people effortlessly gliding along with beautiful, efficient technique. 


One thing to remember, the old Larry Cain video on the river was exactly that--I can't remember another video showing a more effortless (appearing anyway) beautiful stroke that looked like he could continue on with forever. So I'm excited to see Larry's comments.

yugi

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2016, 01:05:44 AM »
^ exactly

I had a surf-allround board forever while buddies switched to race boards. I had to learn to paddle better. With better technique I do better in long distance. Because it is more efficient. I find short distance one can power away with raw force but less for long distance.

Also long distance your technique becomes more efficient as you train.

Esteroali

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2016, 04:23:33 AM »
Plus....the elephant in the room is age. I am the OP and 55. I have tried working with different technique "gears" according to what body part is failing on that particular day of paddle. Achieving the greatest result with the least effort will save my body the best.

ukgm

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2016, 05:30:06 AM »

Maybe all I'm asking for is instruction on how techniques for endurance might differ from short format racing. Presumably in other disciplines there is a difference? Long distance runners don't run like sprinters, although there will be some features that will be shared.

Yes and this is a massive difference. It's all about the forces involved as the scale of these can radically change the efficiency or behaviour of a movement. However, most SUP distance events are so long, the forces will remain low so efficiency is your friend (unless you're jumping between drafts and groups). The only exception to this would be something like the Lost Mills 200m sprint event - watch the video's and the technqiues employed aren't sustainable or likely representative of their distance racing.

The other aspect not mentioned here is equipment choice - I would change the set up of paddle, blade type and even fin based on the event length and intensity and these will all affect technique in my view.
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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2016, 11:13:27 AM »
Speed vs. efficiency is a good point.  I have noticed that when I change my technique, I engage different muscles and it takes a lot of training hours to condition the muscles to get used to the new technique.  It takes a while to develop the strength and endurance to maintain the new technique during longer efforts.  So changing to a new stroke technique right before a long distance race is not a good idea.
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Luc Benac

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2016, 01:38:56 PM »
Plus....the elephant in the room is age. I am the OP and 55. I have tried working with different technique "gears" according to what body part is failing on that particular day of paddle. Achieving the greatest result with the least effort will save my body the best.

Yes changing stroke has played some tricks on my rotator cuffs on the right shoulder.
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