Author Topic: Hips and the drive.  (Read 8145 times)

Esteroali

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Hips and the drive.
« on: August 02, 2016, 07:00:22 AM »
So I have been watching two videos about technique. I can't understand if they are describing the same thing in different ways or the techniques are diametrically opposed.
Video #1.  Connor Baxters video on Blue Planet with Robert Stehlik. In the last quarter of the video he describes the drive. He seems to "sit in a chair" and drive his hips FORWARD to the paddle.
Video  #2.. Larry Cains Video Analysis 01.  Larry describes sitting in the chair as a fault and tells the paddler to move the hips forward so you can use the big muscles to drive BACK.

I'm confused. Are these two completely different techniques on paddling or what?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 07:05:04 AM by Esteroali »

bernhardd

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2016, 08:01:37 AM »


More to confuse you!

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PonoBill

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2016, 08:04:12 AM »
I think the motion is complicated enough and the timing so fussy that no one explains it well. I use hips and legs all the time to drive my board into a swell, and I engage my hips in flatwater paddling in a similar way with different timing. I can't describe the motion any better than these guys do but the end result is "kicking" your board into a swell, using hips and legs to get the last bit of acceleration necessary to match speed with the swell at just the right moment to efficiently transfer power to the board. It doesn't matter that you'll have to give that acceleration back at the end of the stroke because you caught the swell and it's power overcomes the little deceleration.

The other method is driving forward with your hips to complete the twisting motion of your core, gaining big-muscle power. I concentrate on driving the hip on the side of the paddle forwards as I uncoil into the stroke. Dave says both hips, and I think I'm actually using both, but it's easiest to time if you focus on one hip.
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Quickbeam

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2016, 08:38:35 AM »
So I have been watching two videos about technique. I can't understand if they are describing the same thing in different ways or the techniques are diametrically opposed.
Video #1.  Connor Baxters video on Blue Planet with Robert Stehlik. In the last quarter of the video he describes the drive. He seems to "sit in a chair" and drive his hips FORWARD to the paddle.
Video  #2.. Larry Cains Video Analysis 01.  Larry describes sitting in the chair as a fault and tells the paddler to move the hips forward so you can use the big muscles to drive BACK.

I'm confused. Are these two completely different techniques on paddling or what?


Yes, they are different. Connor has his own unique style and it is different than what most others would teach. Having said that, he certainly gets results with what he is doing, so I think it comes down to finding out what works for you.

Pono Bill is correct in that technique is extremely difficult to explain. There are others on this board who are way better paddlers than I am, so Ill ask them to chime in if I get anything wrong. This is my take on it. One of the best ways Ive heard the stroke technique described is to make sure you pull yourself to the paddle. Dont pull the paddle to you. This maybe doesnt make a lot of sense in writing, but when you are out on the water it does. It really means that you dont use your arms to paddle, you use your core. Part of using your core involves a body twisting motion. And as part of this body twisting you can use your hips to help thrust you forward. It actually works.

As an example. If Im in a race and coming up to a buoy turn and Im a little bit off line to where I want to enter the turn, I can actually use my hips to bring myself back online. Instead of taking the time to switch the paddle over to the other side, I just thrust my hips even more than usual and it will act just like a correcting stroke. I'm not thrusting my hips like Connor says, but rather thrusting my hips as part of my core twisting motion. The hips become part of the twisting motion. Your hips can and should be a powerful part of your stroke.

Youll also notice with Larry Cain that he paddles with one foot slightly forward than the other. He uses a staggered stance. I actually like that stance, but most would teach that you should have your feet even with each other. I think this is one of those things that you do whatever works best for you.

One more thing about stroke technique. Last year I had some pretty serious elbow issues, most of which I believed were related to paddling. I didnt paddle most of last winter to rest my elbows and then I started to examine stroke technique to try and see if there was something I was doing wrong. I tried so many different techniques, and looked at so many different videos, that I was totally lost and confused, and quite frankly got really frustrated. I just got really lost in what I was actually supposed to be doing. I went out with a young fellow I know who is an excellent paddler and he gave me just a couple of very minor pointers that got me back on track, but my point is it is really easy to get lost and confused in stroke technique.

Once again there are some very good paddlers on this site with a lot more experience than I have, so hopefully they will chime in as well. Ive just listed what works for me.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 08:54:26 AM by Quickbeam »
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supsurf-tw

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2016, 10:24:13 AM »
Connors technique felt backwards to me when I tried it. I think a lot of it comes down to individual physiology, how your body's built and where you carry your strength. Connors vid was a good example of "more than 1 way to skin a cat" as far as paddling styles go.
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Esteroali

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2016, 11:06:53 AM »
Link to Video #1. Connor Baxter.



Link to Video #2.  Larry Cain



Bean

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2016, 12:23:37 PM »
Ever since first watching the CB vid, my personal paddle stroke has been in total limbo, I'm like a drunk playing musical chairs...

mrbig

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2016, 01:16:56 PM »
+1 Bean. Joe Weider muscle confusion. All monked up.

+1  Drunk on musical chairs!!

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Esteroali

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2016, 01:19:36 PM »
I am a newbie. Mature female paddling less than a year so I'm glad I'm not the only one confused. I feel like trying to dance to disco, my body can't figure out which way to go.

nalu-sup

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2016, 02:06:41 PM »
My 2 cents. At first I thought that two videos were very different when Larry was talking about not likeing the chair; but then as it progressed I got the impression that his real issue was with the lack of ankle flexion which is what caused the weight to be back on the heels instead of up on the balls of the feet at the catch. Near the end, Larry talked a lot about the importance of bringing the hips forward strongly during the stroke, so that means he also advocates the hips dropping down and back in preparation for that movement like Conner talks about. He just wants to see the ankles flexing at the same time so that the person does not sit back on their heals.
It reminds me of skiing; everyone says to bend your knees, but that just sets the skiers weight back on their heels (very bad) unless the ankles flex to match. Since Larry used the analogy of ski boots, I think this same skier problem is what he was seeing in the video.
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Eagle

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2016, 07:22:24 PM »
A lot of good info in those vids.  Forward ankle flexion and reach are key with a strong catch and heavy pull.  This can launch you from glide into planing mode when DW paddling in short period medium sized swells and fresh breeze.

Last DW on the weekend - actually slowed down on the Bullet 14V2 by dragging my paddle planing - as the board was pearling too much into waves ahead even standing back.  Conditions were steep short period swell in full whitecaps which were not optimal for the board.  In smaller swells later that same run - that board easily skipped over waves to the swells ahead.  My wife on our M-14 also enjoyed the run.  She cannot plane but she catches plenty of glides.

So basically if you take from each of those vids certain specific techniques discussed - you can paddle a lot better and have more fun as well.  This vid is also good -

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Billekrub

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2016, 09:49:38 AM »
Had exactly the same reaction at first, but after thinking about it (never do this) why not incorporate both at the same time, CB and LC?

LC--twist by bringing paddle-side hip forward just prior to inserting the paddle in the water and lower hips
CB--bring hips forward to paddle as body unbends at hip

Basically, if one twists the torso and hips and lowers hips to maximize reach, as both recommend, and then follows the CB instruction, won't untwisting and unbending both occur at once:  the untwisting energy (vertical axis or rotation) and the hip unbending energy (horizontal axis of rotation)?

LC talks about bringing the hips to the paddle via a hip unbending motion much the same as CB, in his "Exit" instruction video, so one assumes he recommends both methods of using the entire body.

In my own efforts to catch slow waves with a surfy, rockered board, both methods make a HUGE difference in catch percentages.

PS:

Where is the mechanical engineer when you need one?  Why not design a propulsion/paddle system that offers the paddler more leverage?  Long paddle shafts reduce leverage and are almost ineffective for beginners.  There are at least a dozen ways to do this, in concept, that I can visualize.  But then, this could be upsetting for those who love their paddle as is.

supsurf-tw

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2016, 10:07:35 AM »
One of the differences I've noticed is that with CB's style the entry is not as forward?
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Eagle

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2016, 02:24:19 PM »
Here is vid of Connor in full sprint mode -

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Bean

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Re: Hips and the drive.
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2016, 06:41:41 AM »
Reminds me of a skipping-stone...

If my math is right, that works out to an average of 13.55kph/8.47mph in the 200 meter.  I wonder what his top speed was?

When you watch this run in conjunction with Robert's interview you really get a sense for what Connor is saying.

 


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