Author Topic: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?  (Read 16223 times)

surf4food

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2016, 05:10:54 AM »
I agree with digger also that even in places like here without much surfing, the perceived connection with surfing may add a "coolness" factor that may add to the initial attraction.   After that, though, I don't think people care, at least not to the point they're interested in hampering performance and enjoyment by sticking to board designs that aren't suited as well as possible to their non-surfing paddling.


Then there's the thing that happens to anyone with no surfing background or knowledge who DOES feel a connection to surfing culture when they buy a standup board--they find out "real" surfers don't like standup.  So again, why sacrifice your performance paddling on an inland lake by sticking with boards that look like surfboards, instead of something better suited to your activity, all to avoid deviating from "the roots" of a sport that doesn't even like you already?

Exactly.  Agree 100%.  Ironic JT is so worried about the "cool" factor diminishing as a result of SUP moving away from surfing when surfers think SUP is about as cool as an accordion player (and I like accordion).
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 05:21:06 AM by surf4food »

surf4food

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2016, 05:22:49 AM »
Steve West's position has merit, but who cares? Virtually every person who would even bother to think about the roots of SUP think it's surfing. An academic rationale for thinking otherwise is an interesting exercise, certainly the kind of folly that I indulge in, but ultimately doesn't change anything.

The majority of SUP growth is currently inland. Lots of lakes and rivers and a lot of people. They don't think much about the roots, they just like the idea of what a SUP does--which is a lot of stuff. That's the element that surfer's don't understand. they look at SUP and see something encroaching on surfing. We look at SUP and see a bicycle for the water.

At the end of the day, none of it matters but it makes for an interesting conversation. 

PonoBill

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2016, 03:58:18 PM »
Some of the early SUP pioneers (both John Zapotocky and Pops Ah Choy I think) didn't use canoe paddles, they used light oars. I guess Steve might argue that SUP descended from Dinghies. I'm sure the surfers would like that.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

pdxmike

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2016, 05:39:40 PM »
I didn't know that Steve West was from the UK.  There's a California Steve West who many people here know.  I guess that makes the UK Steve the Steve West of the East, and the other the Steve West of the West.

deepmud

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2016, 01:55:57 PM »
I just want to say, as an inland-only, lake-only guy, I feel zero connection to surfing and I'm surprised it matters to anyone. I'm the guy who otherwise kayaks - usually in my plastic "toy" kayak, but sometimes in my old Pacific Designs Sea-Otter (40 year old fiberglass :D ) . It's 100% lakes and streams. Waves are made by boats going by.

Muskoka SUP

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2016, 02:31:10 PM »
I just want to say, as an inland-only, lake-only guy, I feel zero connection to surfing and I'm surprised it matters to anyone. I'm the guy who otherwise kayaks - usually in my plastic "toy" kayak, but sometimes in my old Pacific Designs Sea-Otter (40 year old fiberglass :D ) . It's 100% lakes and streams. Waves are made by boats going by.

..so is there ever windy days on the lake you paddle?  Betcha there is.  Try paddling with the wind one day.  The stronger the wind the better. 15 knots sustained is a good start.  It only gets better.  Arrange for someone to pick you up at the other end.  Then get back to us.. You'll need to talk about it... 
It ain't over until the fat board sinks....

deepmud

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2016, 01:40:13 PM »
well - ok I've done one "down breezer" - 20 to 30 mph winds, some whitecaps -  and it was great fun. I did love that  - a lot. We don't get those conditions often here in the lakes  -


Now - Turnagain Arm gets some honking winds, and with the extreme tides the waves look fun. I know we have had windsurfers there for decades and the kiteboarders look like they have a blast....but the consequences for failure in that water/mud are severe. People are sup'ing the bore tide - seems ok - but the learning curve for "1 wave every 12 hours" seems rough :D



I don't want to say that waves can't be fun - but I'm trying to express my  "I'm surprised there is a this is cool because surfers do it" mindset. I have a "this is cool because of what I can do that adds to what I've been doing for years on a kayak" mindset.

I do think I'd LOVE to learn to really downwind - I've never visited Hawaii but I have have a daughter in Oregon, maybe I can try the Gorge someday.

Argosi

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2016, 05:56:24 PM »
I gotta admit Kaihoe I didn't realize how deep those Starboard Ace's really were - just haven't seen a lot in person around here for some reason.  And you're not kidding about King of the Cut, dugouts are everywhere! 

And Pono, JT talked about deck depth but I assume that was just a way to get the board narrower without being too tippy.  Have you seen many dugout type boards used on Maliko or in Hood River?  They may have been there and I just wasn't paying attention.

The Starboard Ace has dominated the King of the Cut race for years now - mainly because it's the best performing 14' board in the great downwind conditions of that race. Yes, there's a learning curve to boards like the Ace, but it's clearly worth it in my opinion. Personally, I don't give a damn about how cool a board looks or its roots. I'm interested in how fun it is and how it performs. In downwind conditions up to about 25mph (30mph if you're really skilled), there just isn't another board that catches bumps and glides like the Ace. My idea of fun on a downwinder is catching as many bumps as I can and gliding as much as possible and nothing has come close the Ace for me. I've had 3 versions of the Ace in my quiver over the past several years (going back to the "New", the old name of the Ace). The Ace has been a constant for me while lots of other boards have come in and out of my quiver alongside the Ace. It's not by accident that the Ace has inspired many similar designs from a large number of other manufacturers.

If you live somewhere where you get lots of downwinders over 25mph (Maui, Gorge, etc.), then I'd look to a non-dugout board that would be more fun to surf and turn on big waves. I must admit, it's tricky to carve a turn on a wave on the Ace, although it can be done. Check out this video of a super skilled rider carving the Ace on a downwinder:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbdKlEpK4rg

Here's a bigger rider doing a great job surfing the Ace:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piiZYxxvZzw

As for the difficulty of falling off and getting back on, yes it's trickier, but once you learn the technique, it's not really an issue. I just jump off when I reach the tipping point of no return. No bruised shins. This is me in the process of ejecting:


As mentioned, you can grab the raised sides as you fall in to keep the board near you:


There's also a technique for getting back on in rough water, but I won't go into it here.

ukgm

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2016, 05:06:12 AM »
I gotta admit Kaihoe I didn't realize how deep those Starboard Ace's really were - just haven't seen a lot in person around here for some reason.  And you're not kidding about King of the Cut, dugouts are everywhere! 

And Pono, JT talked about deck depth but I assume that was just a way to get the board narrower without being too tippy.  Have you seen many dugout type boards used on Maliko or in Hood River?  They may have been there and I just wasn't paying attention.

The Starboard Ace has dominated the King of the Cut race for years now - mainly because it's the best performing 14' board in the great downwind conditions of that race. Yes, there's a learning curve to boards like the Ace, but it's clearly worth it in my opinion. Personally, I don't give a damn about how cool a board looks or its roots. I'm interested in how fun it is and how it performs. In downwind conditions up to about 25mph (30mph if you're really skilled), there just isn't another board that catches bumps and glides like the Ace. My idea of fun on a downwinder is catching as many bumps as I can and gliding as much as possible and nothing has come close the Ace for me. I've had 3 versions of the Ace in my quiver over the past several years (going back to the "New", the old name of the Ace). The Ace has been a constant for me while lots of other boards have come in and out of my quiver alongside the Ace. It's not by accident that the Ace has inspired many similar designs from a large number of other manufacturers.

If you live somewhere where you get lots of downwinders over 25mph (Maui, Gorge, etc.), then I'd look to a non-dugout board that would be more fun to surf and turn on big waves. I must admit, it's tricky to carve a turn on a wave on the Ace, although it can be done. Check out this video of a super skilled rider carving the Ace on a downwinder:

There's also a technique for getting back on in rough water, but I won't go into it here.

The new Mistral Equinox is an evolved version of the older Ace so if people like the feel of the Ace, they might want to try that board too (I personally found it a bit too rolling for my tastes).

PonoBill

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2016, 08:51:11 AM »
Lots of Aces in the Gorge, and lots of Naish boards, but SIC Bullet 14s dominate probably 5 to 1.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Pierre

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2016, 02:52:30 PM »
my recessed decks are opened at tail, gives an advantage on the Aces, but this is a different design. No problem for surfing, however I guess such boards are for ocean touring and light to medium DW conditions, not for surf or beach-races.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 02:54:41 PM by Pierre »
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PonoBill

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2016, 05:43:57 PM »
Open tails work pretty well, though there is a bit more slosh time. Stuey Campbell did them on Penetrators with a bridge. I thought there might be a flapper valve under the bridge, but no. The NACA-style bilge drainers on most OCs and Surfskis actively suck when you're moving. One little piece of carbon or plastic. Works gangbusters.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Belltownbikes

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2016, 06:41:23 AM »
I just want to say, as an inland-only, lake-only guy, I feel zero connection to surfing and I'm surprised it matters to anyone. I'm the guy who otherwise kayaks - usually in my plastic "toy" kayak, but sometimes in my old Pacific Designs Sea-Otter (40 year old fiberglass :D ) . It's 100% lakes and streams. Waves are made by boats going by.

I'm with Deepmud.  I'm a reformed whitewater paddler/seakayaker and guideboat rower.  I feel no connection to the "surfing roots" of the sport.  I mainly paddle lakes in rivers here in New England, but spend 2 weeks each year getting blown and bounced around Martha's Vineyard.  SUP for me is an "easier" way to get on the water, and it provides a better workout.  I love it when I have some bumps to glide on.

I would love a recessed-deck board for my use, reducing the width while maintaining stability would be great.  The short-period boat wakes waves still give me problems.  Big ocean swells no problem.

I have tried SUS and it is a blast - if I lived out on the Cape or the south shore of Long Island I would be doing that all the time.

FloridaWindSUP

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2016, 08:26:08 AM »
my recessed decks are opened at tail, gives an advantage on the Aces, but this is a different design. No problem for surfing, however I guess such boards are for ocean touring and light to medium DW conditions, not for surf or beach-races.

Board name is the "Pierrotrator"? Ha ha! :)
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TallDude

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2016, 09:05:18 AM »
Here's an old Hobie 18' x 25" that drained out the tail. This was built for Chuck Patterson probably 10 years ago. I raced it for a while. I cracked my ribs on the sharp top rail while falling in the wake of a big ferry boat. It had too much rocker. I surfed it a number of times, but the rocker killed the speed.

BTW, I designed the Craftsman Style home in the background:) It's what I do when I'm not paddling.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 09:10:20 AM by TallDude »
It's not overhead to me!
8'8" L-41 ST and a whole pile of boards I rarely use.

 


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