Author Topic: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?  (Read 16221 times)

PonoBill

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2016, 10:35:55 AM »
Just an idea that popped into my head.  While these dugout boards were designed with racing in mind, I have to wonder they would actually be a fun type of board to paddle in a flat lake just for fun.  Without the chop of open ocean less water will get in and I can see these being a lot of fun just to slice through the water in.

The old Starboard K15 was not only the board you're talking about, I believe it's also the reason we have 14' as the standard for race boards today. I think Naish knew that if the K15's raced against their 14 Jav's that the Jav would be toast even if the K15 had a less talented paddler. Hence the Naish series was limited to 14' and the SUP world ossified around that standard. K15's were silly fast in the right conditions and a total barge with water slowly draining from the well. Starboard ditched them much too early--when the SUP world was focused on the coasts. Today they'd probably sell well--except for the fact that you can't race them.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 10:37:28 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

ukgm

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2016, 10:42:31 AM »
Just an idea that popped into my head.  While these dugout boards were designed with racing in mind, I have to wonder they would actually be a fun type of board to paddle in a flat lake just for fun.  Without the chop of open ocean less water will get in and I can see these being a lot of fun just to slice through the water in.

The old Starboard K15 was not only the board you're talking about, I believe it's also the reason we have 14' as the standard for race boards today. I think Naish knew that if the K15's raced against their 14 Jav's that the Jav would be toast even if the K15 had a less talented paddler. Hence the Naish series was limited to 14' and the SUP world ossified around that standard. K15's were silly fast in the right conditions and a total barge with water slowly draining from the well. Starboard ditched them much too early--when the SUP world was focused on the coasts. Today they'd probably sell well--except for the fact that you can't race them.



One of the top mens 14ft paddlers in the UK still races his (but had it shortened to 14ft). Fast but bloody heavy.

pdxmike

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2016, 10:50:03 AM »
Just an idea that popped into my head.  While these dugout boards were designed with racing in mind, I have to wonder they would actually be a fun type of board to paddle in a flat lake just for fun.  Without the chop of open ocean less water will get in and I can see these being a lot of fun just to slice through the water in.
I've never had a board with a deep recess, but I've tried them.  I don't like some things about them, but the fact you can add stability without going wider and therefore slower (and harder to keep the paddle upright) is great, and that does make them fun on flatwater--who doesn't like more speed without more tippiness?  And some of their drawbacks (taking on water, possibility of falling on a rail, etc.) fall away on flatwater.


In fact, I think manufacturers sometimes forget that some things that make boards better for racing also make them more enjoyable for daily paddling, and that people will skew their board selections based on that.  So, for instance, they don't want "high-performance" shapes to be available only in expensive, flimsy construction whereas if racing were all that mattered, cost and flimsiness might be accepted for a small increase in speed.


What I disliked most about the attempted move a few years ago to establish board limits on width, weight and especially recesses was when manufacturers agreed to stop selling non-rule-compliant boards, thus making, for instance, boards with deep recesses unavailable to people whose priority wasn't racing.

pdxmike

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2016, 10:59:29 AM »
ukgm--great example.  The K15 seems like it would be a great board for me, for reasons that a lot of people would share--performance on flatwater for larger people who don't race seriously, or have other boards for racing.  In fact, the 14'+ to 16' range seems ideal for many people for many reasons, but it's a horrible length for racing--even if you can find a race with a UL class, you'd have the shortest board in it.

Area 10

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2016, 11:52:09 AM »
Just an idea that popped into my head.  While these dugout boards were designed with racing in mind, I have to wonder they would actually be a fun type of board to paddle in a flat lake just for fun.  Without the chop of open ocean less water will get in and I can see these being a lot of fun just to slice through the water in.
Yeah, except that they aren't, particularly, at least in their current configuration, which do not have cutting bows. The Mistral Equinox 14 is quite pleasant to paddle in flat water, for instance, but most people who could handle that board (24.6"
Wide) would rather be on something like the SIC X14Pro, which is a full displacement design. At the moment, at least, dugouts are aimed at coastal racers and are a hybrid-type bow design.

But the SB K15 (RIP) wasn't a hundred miles away from a canoe that you stand up in, so I can see that type of design making a return, for inland paddlers. Maybe it's because the main (non-specialist) SUP brands are mostly windsurfing/kitesurfing brands that there are not already fleets of SUPs for inland paddlers that are similar to the K15 (possibly the first production dug-out SUP?).

surf4food

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2016, 02:14:55 PM »
Just an idea that popped into my head.  While these dugout boards were designed with racing in mind, I have to wonder they would actually be a fun type of board to paddle in a flat lake just for fun.  Without the chop of open ocean less water will get in and I can see these being a lot of fun just to slice through the water in.
Yeah, except that they aren't, particularly, at least in their current configuration, which do not have cutting bows. The Mistral Equinox 14 is quite pleasant to paddle in flat water, for instance, but most people who could handle that board (24.6"
Wide) would rather be on something like the SIC X14Pro, which is a full displacement design. At the moment, at least, dugouts are aimed at coastal racers and are a hybrid-type bow design.

But the SB K15 (RIP) wasn't a hundred miles away from a canoe that you stand up in, so I can see that type of design making a return, for inland paddlers. Maybe it's because the main (non-specialist) SUP brands are mostly windsurfing/kitesurfing brands that there are not already fleets of SUPs for inland paddlers that are similar to the K15 (possibly the first production dug-out SUP?).

I was just curios how these boards would be for flat-water recreation.

digger71

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2016, 03:04:03 PM »
My perspective is no doubt influenced by my background.  I come to SUP from surfing, and a majority of my SUP time now is SUS.  I probably SUS ~200 days a year, downwind maybe 25 days, and flatwater paddle when I have to in order to be in shape for downwinding. 

With that said, while "the masses don't surf" I think a large part of the popularity of SUP to those masses is based on it's surfing roots.  I'm guessing there were stand up kayaks or other crafts before Laird brought SUP into popular culture, but they never gained the attention SUP and its surfing roots did.

I made the switch from prone to stand up surfing for good about 5 years ago and would casually paddle flatwater.  I had no clue that downwinding was even a "thing" until a couple years ago when someone showed me a video of Jeremy Riggs (think this is the one below).  I was hooked and made my first trip to Maui shortly after.  I get that most will never downwind in conditions like this and basically none will move like JR, but for me a guy standing still in a dugout wouldn't have had the same impact.


surf4food

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2016, 05:20:49 PM »


With that said, while "the masses don't surf" I think a large part of the popularity of SUP to those masses is based on it's surfing roots.  I'm guessing there were stand up kayaks or other crafts before Laird brought SUP into popular culture, but they never gained the attention SUP and its surfing roots did.





I'd agree agree there's some connection between it's growing popularity and its surfing roots, but I don't think most non surfing SUPers fancy themselves as being part of surf culture.

On nn unrelated question to the OP but relevant to the vid you posted.  Are the steering mechanisms on these SIC boards available based on being either a goofy or regular foot?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 05:23:24 PM by surf4food »

pdxmike

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2016, 05:37:08 PM »
I agree with digger also that even in places like here without much surfing, the perceived connection with surfing may add a "coolness" factor that may add to the initial attraction.   After that, though, I don't think people care, at least not to the point they're interested in hampering performance and enjoyment by sticking to board designs that aren't suited as well as possible to their non-surfing paddling.


Then there's the thing that happens to anyone with no surfing background or knowledge who DOES feel a connection to surfing culture when they buy a standup board--they find out "real" surfers don't like standup.  So again, why sacrifice your performance paddling on an inland lake by sticking with boards that look like surfboards, instead of something better suited to your activity, all to avoid deviating from "the roots" of a sport that doesn't even like you already?

digger71

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2016, 05:41:05 PM »

On nn unrelated question to the OP but relevant to the vid you posted.  Are the steering mechanisms on these SIC boards available based on being either a goofy or regular foot?

On the production boards they are plumbed for both regular and goofy and can be switched.  Assume on some/most customs they are only on one side, but not sure how prevalent that is.

surf4food

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2016, 09:04:09 PM »
This was a REALLY interesting article by Steve West from Jan 2013 regarding his take on SUP history.  Jim Terrell is adamant that SUP is primarily rooted in surfing (as am I) but Steve West is more adamant of outrigger canoe as its catalyst.  Chicken or the egg. 
http://www.supracer.com/steve-west-the-roots-of-stand-up-paddling/
 

digger71

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2016, 09:35:30 PM »
This was a REALLY interesting article by Steve West from Jan 2013 regarding his take on SUP history.  Jim Terrell is adamant that SUP is primarily rooted in surfing (as am I) but Steve West is more adamant of outrigger canoe as its catalyst.  Chicken or the egg. 
http://www.supracer.com/steve-west-the-roots-of-stand-up-paddling/

If I had just seen that article and the accompanying comments earlier I could have saved Admin some bandwidth ;)  They had this same conversation and covered most of the same points 3 years ago.   


PonoBill

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2016, 10:01:40 PM »
Steve West's position has merit, but who cares? Virtually every person who would even bother to think about the roots of SUP think it's surfing. An academic rationale for thinking otherwise is an interesting exercise, certainly the kind of folly that I indulge in, but ultimately doesn't change anything.

The majority of SUP growth is currently inland. Lots of lakes and rivers and a lot of people. They don't think much about the roots, they just like the idea of what a SUP does--which is a lot of stuff. That's the element that surfer's don't understand. they look at SUP and see something encroaching on surfing. We look at SUP and see a bicycle for the water.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

pdxmike

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2016, 10:09:01 PM »
It's important to know so if we paddle recessed boards we know whether to feel guilt for betraying the roots of the sport.

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Re: Is this part of what Jim Terrell warned us about?
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2016, 01:04:49 AM »
Steve West's position has merit, but who cares? Virtually every person who would even bother to think about the roots of SUP think it's surfing. An academic rationale for thinking otherwise is an interesting exercise, certainly the kind of folly that I indulge in, but ultimately doesn't change anything.

The majority of SUP growth is currently inland. Lots of lakes and rivers and a lot of people. They don't think much about the roots, they just like the idea of what a SUP does--which is a lot of stuff. That's the element that surfer's don't understand. they look at SUP and see something encroaching on surfing. We look at SUP and see a bicycle for the water.
Yes.
Steve West is a windsurfer from Hayling Island in the UK (where there was no OC while he lived there through youth and early adulthood) who subsequently left to go to other countries and then discovered OC and other paddlesports. He doesn't surf, as far as I know, at least not seriously. Now he lectures us on the Polynesian roots of just about everything, like a born-again evangelist will tell you that having bread with a meal was invented by Jesus.

He is a talented guy - what he has done for Mistral SUP in a short space of time is remarkable. But he needs to sell books. To sell books, you have to say sonething a bit different. So he does the "mystical Tahitian" thing, pimping the lineage of another culture (indeed, perhaps it is even what is now called "cultural appropriation") and because we use a paddle, suddenly SUP is an off-shoot of another sport that 99.9% of SUPers have never tried, and never will.

So, is he in effect a white man with dreadlocks, selling Bob Marley t-shirt? Or is he an immigrant ambassador for Polynesian culture acting selflessly to promote the achievements of a people far distant from his own roots? I have no idea. You make up your own mind. As you will about whether SUP came from Laird and the Waikkiki beach boys experimenting by using a OC paddle on their surfboards, and whether the presence of either the paddle or the surfboard was the most important feature in that scenario as far as tracing the lineage of the sport goes. Most of us focus on the surfboard, and the purpose (ie. surfing, not transport or racing). Steve West sees that scenario and sees only the paddle. Make up your own mind about what you see.


 


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