Author Topic: Allstar 2017 changing ?  (Read 40469 times)

Area 10

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Re: Allstar 2017 changing ?
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2016, 07:05:17 AM »
When I heard they are making the nose bigger I just thought - why on earth - huge already!

There is too much volume in the x 27 for the likes of me already - 90 kg plus and it doesn't like side winds - so I am guessing most use this board in milder conditions.

I have really come down to thinking lower volume boards are better.....
Yep, as I've said many times before, most places where SUP is big around the world have milder conditions (in every way) than you are paddling in - or most of coastal UK is. Our waters are choppy, windy and cold with huge tidal effects and big currents, and in many places the wind is onshore for a lot of the time. We probably paddle in conditions that 90% of the world wouldn't even bother to go out in. So it's not surprising if the majority of boards don't suit our conditions particularly well. Plus, fast raceboards are not built to be fun to paddle, just as a track race car isn't comfortable to drive. It's all about speed not paddling enjoyment.

It's surprising how many thousands I've had to spend to learn this pretty obvious lesson. Many new purchases have been a triumph of hope over experience. Or indeed, common sense :)

ukgm

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Re: Allstar 2017 changing ?
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2016, 09:14:56 AM »
unless your current board was under water if the outline,width and length is the same adding volume will just be above the water line so would not make a huge about of difference to how it floats you. Volume is important up to a point  but unless you way about 200Kg you only really need to consider the shape of the board and whats going on above the water line and how that will effect the stability and performance and not the actual volume
i

Whilst you are obviously right, I'm assuming that a board is designed to provide a particular hydrodynamic profile based on a particular displacement. Whilst the board won't sink, you might get a cm or two of extra displacement if you're Ealing with a heavier paddler and then impact on its optimised profile...... if board companies actually design their boards with that level of refinement. I don't know.

supuk

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Re: Allstar 2017 changing ?
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2016, 09:38:16 AM »
unless your current board was under water if the outline,width and length is the same adding volume will just be above the water line so would not make a huge about of difference to how it floats you. Volume is important up to a point  but unless you way about 200Kg you only really need to consider the shape of the board and whats going on above the water line and how that will effect the stability and performance and not the actual volume
i

Whilst you are obviously right, I'm assuming that a board is designed to provide a particular hydrodynamic profile based on a particular displacement. Whilst the board won't sink, you might get a cm or two of extra displacement if you're Ealing with a heavier paddler and then impact on its optimised profile...... if board companies actually design their boards with that level of refinement. I don't know.

I could prity much garentee they don't use anything special to design the boards to that level. Even if you paddled on glass every time a sup moves around and is efected far more than any program could calculate and if there was a program I would have hoped by now they wouldn't be all making such huge changes by now

Area 10

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Re: Allstar 2017 changing ?
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2016, 10:52:42 AM »
I suspect that the board designers have tended to hear more "great, more volume to float me" responses than "oh dear, too much volume" as they have changed designs over the last 8 years or so. So there is a kinda "volume inflation" thing going on at the moment. But for those of us who paddle in choppy windy waters, there is very definitely a thing called "excess volume" for a particular rider.

But we are a minority. People who paddle pure flat water in winds rarely more than 10 knots are unlikely to complain about too much volume, I'd guess. Or at least, it wouldn't be top of their concerns.

It's nice to see that the new Naish Maliko, despite having gained a few litres since last year, still isn't a crazy big volume. If you are going to be downwind surfing, excess volume is as detrimental as it would be on a prone surfboard. Rarely would a 175lb person use a surfboard that would float someone who is 275lbs.

ukgm

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Re: Allstar 2017 changing ?
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2016, 11:33:29 AM »
I suspect that the board designers have tended to hear more "great, more volume to float me" responses than "oh dear, too much volume" as they have changed designs over the last 8 years or so. So there is a kinda "volume inflation" thing going on at the moment. But for those of us who paddle in choppy windy waters, there is very definitely a thing called "excess volume" for a particular rider.

But we are a minority. People who paddle pure flat water in winds rarely more than 10 knots are unlikely to complain about too much volume, I'd guess. Or at least, it wouldn't be top of their concerns.

It's nice to see that the new Naish Maliko, despite having gained a few litres since last year, still isn't a crazy big volume. If you are going to be downwind surfing, excess volume is as detrimental as it would be on a prone surfboard. Rarely would a 175lb person use a surfboard that would float someone who is 275lbs.

If this is true, then why do many board companies specify a max paddler weight when the volume of the board would float well in excess of that limit ?

pdxmike

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Re: Allstar 2017 changing ?
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2016, 12:08:34 PM »
I suspect that the board designers have tended to hear more "great, more volume to float me" responses than "oh dear, too much volume" as they have changed designs over the last 8 years or so. So there is a kinda "volume inflation" thing going on at the moment. But for those of us who paddle in choppy windy waters, there is very definitely a thing called "excess volume" for a particular rider.

But we are a minority. People who paddle pure flat water in winds rarely more than 10 knots are unlikely to complain about too much volume, I'd guess. Or at least, it wouldn't be top of their concerns.

It's nice to see that the new Naish Maliko, despite having gained a few litres since last year, still isn't a crazy big volume. If you are going to be downwind surfing, excess volume is as detrimental as it would be on a prone surfboard. Rarely would a 175lb person use a surfboard that would float someone who is 275lbs.

If this is true, then why do many board companies specify a max paddler weight when the volume of the board would float well in excess of that limit ?
I think area 10 may have a point--that adding some volume is viewed as a positive that will make a board work for more people, without being viewed as a detriment to anyone.

That's an interesting question about companies specifying paddler weight.  One thing about that--companies like Naish and Starboard tend to be conservative about max. paddler weights.  Heavier-than-recommended people with any experience can do fine.  The less respected companies are the ones who seem to say, "Perfect for paddlers up to 350 pounds", etc.

I also wonder if the "volume inflation" is partially a result of 14' being short for heavier paddlers, but nobody wanting to buy longer boards (or at least companies thinking that).  Since they can't go longer, they blow up volume.  If the standard were 15', or if there weren't quite a few paddlers over 200 lbs., I don't think there'd be so many blimpy boards being made.

Area 10

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Re: Allstar 2017 changing ?
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2016, 01:59:11 PM »
Exactly right IMO, pdxmike. I actually think that maybe 15ft is the optimum length for the broadest range of people, for a fixed fin board. It is even still possible for the average person to surf a 15ft board, but by the time you get to 16ft you are starting to need some decent surf skills to turn the thing, and windage and weight can become a problem for the less powerful. Consider this: The K15 didn't seem too long. Too heavy for sure, maybe too wide by today's standards. But not too long. That was the length that a couple of highly respected designers thought would work best in flat water, and even mild downwind, before the tyranny of the 14ft race class took hold. I reckon they may have been right.

Eagle

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Re: Allstar 2017 changing ?
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2016, 06:00:44 PM »
It appears the 2017 models are changing volumes as follows:  28 dropping 11L - 27 increasing 11L - 24.5 increasing 21L - and the  23 increasing 10L.

Would expect the changes for the 2017 AS to allow more heavier riders to race the 23 and 24.5 even more successfully.   Those racers must have a reasonable balance to power ratio though - to be fast on the 23.  If their balance is average - they will have a very tough time in cross chop and reflected slop.  The 23 width is simply not stable in those garbage conditions - 23 is narrow.  But judging from the BW video and Gorge race results TJ noted -> the 23 was on the podium consistently so it is indeed a very fast race design with proven results.  The 23 apparently was very popular for that group of racers.

From my use - the 2016 model AS23 is tippy and fast enough in winds to 15 kts.  And would expect most old average riders with crappy balance to come to a similar conclusion.  The addition of new chamfered edges should make all the AS boards tippier and slightly faster - provided the board stays fully powered up.  So perfect for younger paddlers with better balance.  If the chamfered edges reduce stability enough though - the 2016 model might be better for some.  The 25 moving down to 24.5 has the most volume increase - and should be the most popular width for most weekend racers.  It should be plenty stable even with the chamfered edges - be faster - and not pearl at all.  The 24.5 will probably be the most popular and most versatile width.  Not super efficient - but not slow either - a good compromise width for most with good stability.  For me though the 23 has the right efficiency.
Fast is FUN!   8)
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Re: Allstar 2017 changing ?
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2016, 09:36:19 PM »
Perhaps Elite paddlers racing or using a 23" board have been loosing weight over the years... not gaining weight. One reason of many as to why more volume for new boards may not be necessary.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

ukgm

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Re: Allstar 2017 changing ?
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2016, 12:27:33 AM »
It appears the 2017 models are changing volumes as follows:  28 dropping 11L - 27 increasing 11L - 24.5 increasing 21L - and the  23 increasing 10L.


That's a gulf in sizing though between the 24.5 and a 27. That 27 needed to be a 26.

Area 10

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Re: Allstar 2017 changing ?
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2016, 05:45:59 AM »
It appears the 2017 models are changing volumes as follows:  28 dropping 11L - 27 increasing 11L - 24.5 increasing 21L - and the  23 increasing 10L.


That's a gulf in sizing though between the 24.5 and a 27. That 27 needed to be a 26.
They might be aiming at two different sets of buyers rather than sampling different ends of the same sample of people. In other words, the range may consist of two boards (27 and 28) for people who want all-round touring/racers, or big downwind/open ocean,  and then the rest (narrower widths) aimed at the bulk of competitive racers who want a board firmly oriented to flat water, mild chop, downbreezing, and technical racing, ie. for typical race conditions round the world. It might be that a 26" wide board would not appeal to either group, being too narrow for one, and too wide for the other.

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Re: Allstar 2017 changing ?
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2016, 08:21:44 AM »
It appears the 2017 models are changing volumes as follows:  28 dropping 11L - 27 increasing 11L - 24.5 increasing 21L - and the  23 increasing 10L.
That's a gulf in sizing though between the 24.5 and a 27. That 27 needed to be a 26.
It might be that a 26" wide board would not appeal to either group, being too narrow for one, and too wide for the other.
A10 your conclusion is probably valid.  LC as a 6' midweight assessed the AS25 like this -  "This stand up paddle board is incredibly stable" ... "It feels stable like a 30” recreational SUP.  No joke.  But it sure doesn’t perform like one…"  ukgm - have you had a chance to paddle one?

http://www.supracer.com/starboard-all-star-stand-up-paddle-board-review/
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

ukgm

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Re: Allstar 2017 changing ?
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2016, 03:39:20 PM »
It appears the 2017 models are changing volumes as follows:  28 dropping 11L - 27 increasing 11L - 24.5 increasing 21L - and the  23 increasing 10L.
That's a gulf in sizing though between the 24.5 and a 27. That 27 needed to be a 26.
It might be that a 26" wide board would not appeal to either group, being too narrow for one, and too wide for the other.
A10 your conclusion is probably valid.  LC as a 6' midweight assessed the AS25 like this -  "This stand up paddle board is incredibly stable" ... "It feels stable like a 30” recreational SUP.  No joke.  But it sure doesn’t perform like one…"  ukgm - have you had a chance to paddle one?

http://www.supracer.com/starboard-all-star-stand-up-paddle-board-review/

Sadly not. However, at my size I'm not a fan of such a narrow stance width.

Eagle

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Re: Allstar 2017 changing ?
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2016, 08:51:17 AM »
Sadly not. However, at my size I'm not a fan of such a narrow stance width.
If you have a chance - maybe try the current AS25.  Though not really as stable as a 30" recreational board - it is just slightly less stable than our 27.5 Dominator.  So the 25 may surprise you if you try it.  It kinda actually feels more like a 26.
Fast is FUN!   8)
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Re: Allstar 2017 changing ?
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2016, 05:34:12 AM »
The latest video update on the 2017 Starboard Allstar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PQjmgC6JoQ

 


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