Author Topic: I'll fight the yaw...and it won't win!  (Read 6573 times)

addapost

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Re: I'll fight the yaw...and it won't win!
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2016, 03:38:20 AM »
What about altering the direction of the stroke at the last second (end of stroke)?
I remember watching an ancient SUP paddling video (maybe same boot guy)  where they do some type of "J" Stroke (or something) at the end of the paddle stroke.
Does anyone do this? is it efficient? will it prevent yaw?
Like virtually all our strokes, the J-stroke comes from the canoe world. One big difference between a SUP and a canoe is that the board's tail is basically locked by the fin and the nose is free to swing. The opposite is true with a canoe. While underway, a canoe's 'nose' is effectively 'locked' by the water pressure against it, the 'tail' is easier to swing around so the J-stroke is very effective for a canoe.  The fin on the SUP basically locks the tail in place and makes the "J" stoke very ineffective. You get way more bang for your buck by having the "turning" component up at the front of the stroke, that's the part of the board we can easily turn. Another way to say that is that a canoe's pivot point is around the nose and a SUP's pivot point is around the tail (fin). Leverage is your friend, the further away from the pivot point, the easier it is to turn.
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yugi

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Re: I'll fight the yaw...and it won't win!
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2016, 04:43:15 AM »
^ excellent description

I've lost my fin a few times... and then it's really tough to hold a straight course.

I just learned something! Something I can try out if that happens again. Hadn't thought about completely rethinking the situation. Spot on!

PonoBill

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Re: I'll fight the yaw...and it won't win!
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2016, 05:14:30 AM »
What about altering the direction of the stroke at the last second (end of stroke)?
I remember watching an ancient SUP paddling video (maybe same boot guy)  where they do some type of "J" Stroke (or something) at the end of the paddle stroke.
Does anyone do this? is it efficient? will it prevent yaw?

Boot guy was probably me, and the video was about the J-stroke NOT working because of the fin--that one way to paddle only on one side was to reach outwards a little to pull the nose just as Addapost describes. Aincient history though. It's almost hard to figure out why it was so hard to keep a board going straight back then. Good technique does that automatically. I think most people with a good stroke can paddle all day on one side and turn the board in whichever direction they want. Of course if your technique is really good, seven to ten strokes on one side is all you can manage because you set the blade and pull as hard on it as you can. Changing sides lets you put maximum effort into your strokes without exhausiting one side.
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mik911

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Re: I'll fight the yaw...and it won't win!
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2016, 10:06:55 PM »
Awesome.  Thanks for the responses.  Now I can forget about this "J" stroke thing that's been in the back of my mind. 

addapost=great description. Even I can understand it now:)

Bill--maybe you oughta change your handle to "Boot Guy"
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Bulky

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Re: I'll fight the yaw...and it won't win!
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2016, 05:46:56 PM »
Thanks to input from Zoners, I've embarked on a monastic quest to get cleansed of yaw.  As I know you might have been wondering where I've been, I discovered that while there are technical and mechanical things to keep in mind, we shan't overlook the spiritual cleansing that might be required.  I needed to block out any additional sources of input for all of three days to see what progress I could make in the quest.  I've now returned from my self-imposed silence:

I hate you all. 

THANK YOU for coming up with so many creative ways of turning my blissful mornings on the water into sessions of torture.  Just look at these chestnuts I can add to Yugi's initial critique on my other thread:

Quote
Now go out and ONLY paddle on one side. The whole way out on one side, and the whole way back on the other.

Quote
Another drill is to paddle in a circle where you only paddle on the INSIDE of the circle, no corrective sweeps on the outside.

Yugi, Addapost and Area 10--please send me your pictures.  I'm starting a new thread entitled "D*cks on Stand Up Paddle Boards"!   >:( >:( >:(


OK, part of the cleansing process is purging of evil and untoward thoughts, so had to get that out.  Truth is, I made good progress, but the most noticeable thing over the last several days has been significant pain.  I'm sore in my arms, back, hips, thighs--I take those as indicators that I'm certainly altering things in my stroke and using muscles I hadn't before.  I'm also aware that I'm probably using too much of my arms but as I'm getting more accustomed to where the paddle needs to be I'm concentrating on better posture as I pull it through.

Aside from intentionally reaching out from the rail, I've been focusing on what Area 10 said about bringing the blade under the rail.  Probably subtle differences on each end but it's keeping the paddle vertical and parallel--I recognize now I had a bad habit of not bringing the top hand across which left the paddle angled and probably never as deep as it should be and swinging the nose off course every stroke.

Conditions for the past several days have been a factor, but not all bad.  Swells, wind and chop from different directions make cadence a bit hard but make it pretty easy to keep a heading--don't want to veer too far off or coming back on course is a pain.  I could also "cheat" a bit and take advantage of when the nose was freed up to make easy adjustments.

Quote
Once you know how to correct your course, both left and right while paddling on one side the trick is simply to keep an eye on your course and just continually adjust to stay on it. Thatís really all you need to do to go straight.

Bingo--beyond the technical stuff I was doing wrong, I think a lot of my problem was daydreaming and not even realizing or being bugged that I was swinging around 90 degrees or more.  I wondered whether needing to maintain a focus would take away from some of the thinking I like to do on my board, but I'm already realizing that after I make it enough of a habit my mind won't need to be that engaged in it (like I don't think about keeping my car in the lane on long drives).

Quote
Yawing is tremendous effort. Effort just wasted in turning the board one way then another. Doing away with that makes you so much more efficient. Besides saving you distance traveled.

That's really interesting and something I'm getting very curious about.  Like I said, conditions haven't been great but I am intrigued by some of the speed readings I'm getting.  I have to claw my way out against chop and breeze but find my inbound trips as pretty fast--even accounting for conditions in my favor.  I'm interested to see what my readings are when conditions are more suited for speed.

So, time for the tracks.  The only thing I'll offer in terms of excuses is I don't have a really good visual reference point for an outbound heading on this track as I'm headed toward open ocean.  Saturday I could just make out a couple oil platforms about 20miles away but today it was a white out--so I just had to go with a general heading off the point I could see.  On the way back, I can focus on the boat hoist on the pier I take off next to and you can readily see the difference with the inbound track being the straight one.

So first is Saturday's track.

Second, a comparison of about the same length from a month ago (yuck)

Third is from this morning and kind of redundant from my OP, but I had to post it in light of what that stupid jerk Area 10 suggested with his "paddle all the way on one side" idea.  I modified it a bit and started my recent paddles with a couple one-sided 5min intervals and then went to switching off.  Much easier to stay straight on my right than the left.  Today after I made the turn and got underway inbound, I started on the left and impulsively decided to see how long I could stay there.  And then a little longer.  [Area 10, if you felt the heat of 10,000 suns blistering the back of your neck this morning, I might be responsible].  Made it all the way--over 2mi--all on the left.  Almost checked up with a stroke on the right while I was landing in the shore break but kept it on the left even there.

Making progress.  I'll let you know when it actually gets fun.   ???
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yugi

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Re: I'll fight the yaw...and it won't win!
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2016, 02:33:44 AM »
awesome!
 8)

Very straight your last line. That's just due to focus. Careful not to injure yourself. I think the 5 min a side intervals are more balanced. Anything we do different in strokes we need to go gentle at the beginning and listen to our bodies.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 02:54:19 AM by yugi »

Bulky

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Re: I'll fight the yaw...and it won't win!
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2016, 11:29:49 AM »
Thanks, Yugi, I'm not intending to post daily updates but thought I'd post today's track as conditions were set up to go the other direction--as I went on the track in my OP that started us on our padawan journey.   ;)  Pretty pleased with the improvement--especially as there was a significant short period swell coming from the SW which had me in chin-high troughs once I rounded the point and then came at me from behind on the return trip.  Still managed to keep a pretty good heading.  Pleased by progress.

Also appreciate with your counsel about pain.  I know the difference between being sore and strained, but even if it was the former I was still pretty surprised at how significant it was.  Almost didn't go today because of it but decided to keep things a tad shorter--feel great right now!

Paddle on...(in straight lines  :D!)
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Area 10

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Re: I'll fight the yaw...and it won't win!
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2016, 01:53:37 PM »
Well done! You've made outstanding progress in such a short time.

And don't worry, I went through all the pain you have been going through. But sometimes the most valuable lessons are the painful ones. You are showing true grit and determination here, and you'll come out the other side an incomparably better paddler. Keep it up.

And remember that when doing a "paddling only on one side" drill, it's not cheating to take a break, sit down and stretch. And if you feel real pain then of course stop - but you clearly know this so I didn't labour the point. The point of the exercise is to demonstrate to yourself that paddling in a straight line is as much a mental thing as a physical one. I've heard so many people tell me "I *can't* paddle for more than X strokes on one side". But it's not true. They can, they just think they can't. So the first step is to show them that they *can*, it's just that they are not prioritising it sufficiently in their paddling. Once you do prioritise it, it's amazing how much you learn about your own stroke imperfections, and how quickly the yawing goes away.

Bravo - and good luck!

yugi

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Re: I'll fight the yaw...and it won't win!
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2016, 02:12:51 PM »
Of course if you’re going in chin high troughs you’re expected to not straight-line. Especially for the downwind section. In fact that would be a faux-pas. One can see on your GPS it’s a different frequency. Cool. Milk ‘em.

All the skillz you just got discovered for adjusting tweaking course can now be put to optimizing the angle you take the bumps and where you wanna be for the next.

Unleash the fun.

[edit to add] BTW which the the upwind and which the return? My guess is the high frequency the upwind, the return longer sections (closer to the point).
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 02:15:20 PM by yugi »

Bulky

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Re: I'll fight the yaw...and it won't win!
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2016, 04:56:48 PM »
Thanks, guys.  Fun to see progress in mastering a new and important skill.


BTW which the the upwind and which the return? My guess is the high frequency the upwind, the return longer sections (closer to the point).

Not quite.  The swell and what little breeze don't really line up at this hour.  Swell was from the SW, wind more from NNE.  So the outbound leg was closer to the point and going into the swell with a little help from the wind.  Looking at my speed graph, I looked to be going about .5mph faster than on the return (outside with higher frequency) where I was going into the wind.  Not sure if that's another skill to work on, but I do go slower in this instance--the swell doesn't compensate for the wind and I wonder if I get slowed down a bit both by needing to balance and brace for swells I don't see coming from behind and I feel like I'm stalling out when I slide down the back into the trench.
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ruralwaters

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Re: I'll fight the yaw...and it won't win!
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2016, 05:16:21 PM »
Several folks have mentioned video(s) that were helpful in their pursuit of yawlessness.

Can someone provide the links?

Thanks!

PonoBill

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Re: I'll fight the yaw...and it won't win!
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2016, 12:57:08 PM »
Yaw is expensive, every turn adds drag from the fins and rail. The most surprising thing about the autopilot mode on the radio rudder I built is that it is fo much faster. The course corrections are tiny and constant, so the rudder is never moving more than 2-3 degrees which limits rudder friction, and the course corrections keep the track laser straight, which cuts rail drag. Whatever you can do to decrease yaw will make you faster.
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mrbig

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Re: I'll fight the yaw...and it won't win!
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2016, 06:47:16 AM »
Ruralwaters, check out blue planet. Great vid on just turning blade sliiightly and pulling slightly from outside toward rail. Problem solved - and I ain't no racer!  ;D  ;D  ;D
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ruralwaters

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Re: I'll fight the yaw...and it won't win!
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2016, 08:30:09 AM »
@ mrbig

Thank you!

SUPflorida

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Re: I'll fight the yaw...and it won't win!
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2016, 09:49:28 AM »
Ruralwaters, check out blue planet. Great vid on just turning blade sliiightly and pulling slightly from outside toward rail. Problem solved - and I ain't no racer!  ;D  ;D  ;D

I've tried that a few times now without any success. I'm wondering if my very hard rails all the way to the nose is keeping this technique from working? When I plant the paddle a little farther to the side and pull back toward the board, the rail steers me farther to the non-paddle side, exactly the thing I'm trying to avoid.

The flip side is the board can crank into windy close period chop on the beam super easy with those rails by weighting the leeward rail while stroking.

 


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