Author Topic: Surfski or OC1 to improve pladdling  (Read 9739 times)

powermi

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Surfski or OC1 to improve pladdling
« on: May 04, 2016, 10:47:38 AM »
Hi, Looking forward for improving my paddling and trying something different I am searching information about other paddling sports, quite nice to see that OC1 and surfski would meet my objectives. Now I am wondering some questions:

- are both biomechanical correct for the long term paddling? I mean over the years.
- as I have some storage problems (anything larger than 12" would be a problem) which one is the way to go?
- I am going to use it mostly on flat water 99% of time, are they going to perform similar?

Anyone here with experience mixing SUP and one of these sports? Thanks


surf4food

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Re: Surfski or OC1 to improve pladdling
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2016, 11:05:55 AM »
I made a similar post on this very subject in the downwind category.  I too am interested in giving both a try but for the time being I think I am gravitating more towards OC1.  Then again I will have a better informed opinion when I actually have the opportunity to try them (both OC1 and surfskis).  As of yet, I’ve never really downwinded on anything.  SUP obviously will give more of the surfing feeling but OC1/surfskis seem to be more efficient vehicles for downwind swell riding.  It’s funny.  I initially got into SUP as a fun way for my wife and I to enjoy time on the water together (she doesn’t surf) but now it’s broadened my interest in the overall world of paddling. 

balance_fit

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Re: Surfski or OC1 to improve pladdling
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2016, 11:53:22 AM »
Hi, Looking forward for improving my paddling and trying something different I am searching information about other paddling sports, quite nice to see that OC1 and surfski would meet my objectives. Now I am wondering some questions:

- are both biomechanical correct for the long term paddling? I mean over the years.
- as I have some storage problems (anything larger than 12" would be a problem) which one is the way to go?
- I am going to use it mostly on flat water 99% of time, are they going to perform similar?

Anyone here with experience mixing SUP and one of these sports? Thanks

Hello Powermi

Both are great hulls to paddle. As i have had and enjoyed both, Surfski longer than OC1, i would recommend Surfski because of:

Less issue for storing a single hull vs a hull and ama and iakos.
The wing paddle for the Surfski is very efficient.
Upwind, the Surfski is way faster, as well as in flats.
The core rotation, even though it takes longer to master, provides a great workout, is symmetrical (you won't favor the side of the ama).

If you choose OC1:

The single side paddling motion is more similar to sup.
Easier to balance on in rough water.
The seating area might be more comfortable.
Learning curve is a bit faster.

As all and any repetitive motion activities, overexertion, faulty technique will lead to injuries.

Did you mean you have less than 12 feet of storage space? Surfskis and OC1 hulls are well over 19 feet. In such cases, you might need to create extra space, and i don't recommend recreational kayaks 12 feet long. Much better to go the way of a prone paddleboard with such space limitations.

Demo !
Bic Wing 11' x 29"
Bark Commander 12' x 20" 
Walden Magic 10'
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powermi

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Re: Surfski or OC1 to improve pladdling
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2016, 12:35:50 PM »
Thanks for the replies... BTW whats the point of training on a prone board? would it increase fitness or technique better than surf?

balance_fit

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Re: Surfski or OC1 to improve pladdling
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2016, 01:13:11 PM »
Thanks for the replies... BTW whats the point of training on a prone board? would it increase fitness or technique better than surf?
Hi powermi

Look at it from the point of view of the sup paddler who surfs and also has a longer sup for dw, cruising, distance, etc. Same for whoever surfs prone.
Bic Wing 11' x 29"
Bark Commander 12' x 20" 
Walden Magic 10'
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covesurfer

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Re: Surfski or OC1 to improve pladdling
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2016, 01:25:50 PM »
First, I have never paddled surfski so I can't say a lot about it. I did paddle sea kayak for years, before I ever even heard of standup, and there is some similarity between kayak stroke and ski stroke. To me, the advantage of ski would be if you try both OC1 and ski, and you end up liking the performance of the ski better, and, secondly, since the stroke is substantially different than SUP, you are perhaps less likely to develop overuse injury cross training in a ski. Others have mentioned some of the advantages of the ski, going upwind better and not having ama drag to deal with.

What I like about one man outrigger is that I am low to the water, so on downwind runs, I can really focus on what works as far as fast lines go. You can really feel your speed and the boats are so high performance that you can very quickly tell when you're doing things right or wrong. I have learned a lot about gliding by paddling the one-man that directly benefits downwind standup paddling.

Secondly, the stroke is very similar to standup, except, obviously, you are sitting down and the paddle is much shorter. However, the rewards of good stroke technique can really be felt in the canoe. Extension of the reach, turning and rotating the torso to pull the stroke and nice, early release, before the blade reaches the hip are all important in both stand up and OC1. I watch a lot of paddlers and pulling the blade past your feet is one of the most common stroke mistakes. It slows you down but people think they are getting more power by pulling longer. Trust me, you don't. 

You will really feel the affects of poor paddling and water reading technique in an OC, as your friends with the same stroke rate but better technique will paddle away from you. While you expend lots more energy. So, it forces you to work on doing the stroke better and, when you're doing downwind runs, to read the water better to maximize your glides. Riding waves is SO much faster than paddling.  Of course, it requires a whole different set of skills for maneuvering the boat around (vs SUP) but your balance is constantly being challenged.

Whether you choose ski or OC, the benefits are many and I don't think you'll be disappointed. Demo. Demo. Demo. My friends that paddle ski and SUP all rock it on both. Likewise with OC1. All of us have really improved since we expanded into paddling boats along with boards.

« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 01:27:50 PM by covesurfer »

wrybread

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Re: Surfski or OC1 to improve pladdling
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2016, 11:34:23 PM »
This thread makes me want to try an OC1.

I love surfski, but be aware that the learning curve is pretty brutal. I don't think there's any surfskis that will feel stable for a beginner. Just be patient and maybe take a lesson or two a few weeks apart. Its all about learning to brace. I learned on a Fenn Mako XT, which is the classic intro boat, and I loved it. Personally I wouldn't get anything wider than 19", since that's not really a surfski at that point.

And for whatever its worth, I paddle my ski pretty often with my friend on his OC1 in small softer surf, and personally I think the ski surfs a bit better. But that might just be our boats. And I love the ability to go hard on rail and lean into turns. And also paddling on both sides is a nice change.

But yeah as others have said, 12' isn't going to cut it, even for a kayak.


SUPdw

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Re: Surfski or OC1 to improve pladdling
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2016, 12:13:25 PM »
I got a surfski 3 months ago, and I am loving it. Never been in a kayak before.   Balance has not been a problem, well I guess it's not a "real" surfski (Epic V8 - 18' x 21.25"), but it is 2mph faster than SUP. and a whole lotta fun.   I'm starting to try and catch bumps, not really riding but starting to catch some.   Ill be spending next winter in La Ventana, so will gets lots of downwind practice.

re OC-1 vs surfski: I went for the surfski because it has a different paddle stroke.  I'm sure either will improve your stand up.  Conditioning, technique, and most important, learning to read the sea. 


mik911

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Re: Surfski or OC1 to improve pladdling
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2016, 09:47:44 PM »
I got a surfski 3 months ago, and I am loving it. Never been in a kayak before.   Balance has not been a problem, well I guess it's not a "real" surfski (Epic V8 - 18' x 21.25"), but it is 2mph faster than SUP. and a whole lotta fun.   I'm starting to try and catch bumps, not really riding but starting to catch some.   Ill be spending next winter in La Ventana, so will gets lots of downwind practice.

re OC-1 vs surfski: I went for the surfski because it has a different paddle stroke.  I'm sure either will improve your stand up.  Conditioning, technique, and most important, learning to read the sea.

How difficult was it for you to learn on this wider ski?  I'm thinking of starting to surfski also, but not anxious to get frustrated tipping over. 
For comparison, and to get an idea of your 'balance' skill set, what size/wide SUP do you paddle?
Mike

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Eagle

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Re: Surfski or OC1 to improve pladdling
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2016, 10:11:48 PM »
We tried the V8 last year and both my wife and I found that surfski very stable.  As newbs we just hopped in - got strapped in with the proper seat distance - and took off.  Zero balance issues - and was very stable fast and easy.

We then tried the V10 Sport - V10 - and V10L.  The V10L was quite tippy for us - so would go for the V10.  Our Club has a member who has the V14 - and he says that is tippier than the V10L.

The benefit to a narrower surfski is the cockpit paddling ergonomics - ie. much easier and better.  The con is that it is harder to balance.

My wife loved the V8 and she felt very comfortable.  A friend just bought a used V8 and he likes it as well.

http://www.epickayaks.com/product
Fast is FUN!   8)
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SUPdw

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Re: Surfski or OC1 to improve pladdling
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2016, 06:57:45 AM »
Hi mik911;

At 66 my balance skills are at best, average.  It was very easy to hop into the V8 and go.  After 3 or 4 hours on the water I began to worry that I wanted a skinnier ski, it just took going out to the Pacific to cure me of that thought.  I see you have a couple of prone paddleboards, you should have no problem. 

With  a ski, it is essential that you practice deep water remounts.  A couple of failed remounts when you are already tired from paddling, can quickly take you to exhaustion.

wrybread

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Re: Surfski or OC1 to improve pladdling
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2016, 06:18:44 AM »
Sorry I didn't mean to call that ski "not real". It's real and a great platform to learn on.

I think I t's a lot like learning to sup. Level 1 boards are so stable that they don't require you to brace. Same deal with a ski. If it feels really stable at first, it's a level 1 ski. That's like a 32+" wide sup. That's fine for starters but you'll outgrow it quickly.

Personally I think a bit of instability is a good thing, but it's a fine line since if it's too unstable you're not going to develop a decent stroke since you'll spend all your energy balancing. And you'll also get frustrated and quit.

And an interesting aside: I knew how to paddle a ski before I started sup, so I knew all about the need to brace when I started supping. But that didn't help me at all, I still couldn't brace on a sup. I still had to learn to make it automatic. So it's not just a knowledge thing, you just have to put in your time in the saddle to internalize it. And once it's internalized your ski will feel as stable as a row boat. 

I think my for-whatever-its-worth advice comes down to paddle whatever feels comfortable at first. Even a wide ski will teach you to brace, just as a wide sup does. I mostly learned to brace on a narrow sea kayak that was still much wider than a ski. But soon do push yourself to paddle at least a 19" wide ski, since the benefits are absolutely immense for everything, from flat water to downwind to surf. And I can't say enough good things about 17" wide skis, they do absolutely everything better, but don't rush the process and get one too early or you're doomed to quit.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 06:36:18 AM by wrybread »

SUPdw

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Re: Surfski or OC1 to improve pladdling
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2016, 08:01:41 AM »
Hi wrybread;

No worries.  My reference to "not real" was based on the hundreds of posts I've read here and  on surfski forums.  And after all, 21.25" compared to 17" or 18" is a huge difference.   Like moving from a 29" sup to a 23.5" sup. 

For me, I would characterize the Epic  V8 as less stable than my 14'x29" Amundson TRT and similar stability to my 14'x27.25 SIC Bullet. 

Thanks for your advice on moving to a skinnier ski.

TN_SUP

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Re: Surfski or OC1 to improve pladdling
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2016, 10:38:27 AM »
I was looking at getting a higher volume board for wind and chop but decided to get a ski for windy days. Its amazing that a ski is the same price as a race board. I passed on the V8 despite a great deal, just couldn't paddle a ski as wide as my old sea kayak that was sold when I got a board. After seeking advice from many, I settled on a 17'x20" Think EZE that will help me develop balance skills as well as paddle stroke. Everyone dealer asks what your goal is, mine is to be competent on an intermediate ski like V10S or EVO 2 someday (soon!).
'13 SB Sprint, '15 SIC X-14 ProLite, RH Coastal Cruiser, Think EZE Ski, Kenalu Konihi 84  & Mana

wrybread

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Re: Surfski or OC1 to improve pladdling
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2016, 09:58:48 AM »
Quote
For me, I would characterize the Epic  V8 as less stable than my 14'x29" Amundson TRT and similar stability to my 14'x27.25 SIC Bullet. 

Ultimately I think a ski shouldn't be stable at all. As in, you literally shouldn't be able (or try) to balance on it without leaning on your paddle. The analogy I like to say is that its like standing on one leg, but you have walls on either side of you. What would you rather do, try to balance on that one leg, or lean on one of the walls? The problem is that it takes awhile to learn to lean on the wall / your paddle. But it'll come!

 


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