Author Topic: TRYING to think outside the box  (Read 43548 times)

photofr

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #165 on: May 03, 2016, 02:06:59 AM »
What if I tell you that on a calm day, my feet are constantly in a puddle of water when paddling my Allstar 14x25 - with my feather weight?

You are going to get wet, but the question is: will it drain? There's no need for huge sidewalls either.

You mentioned that you are broad shoulders, so things are easier for you, but roughly 25% of people probably have narrower shoulders than you. Either way, PURE PHYSICS: if the blade enters the water closer to the center of your board or boat, you will be more efficient when paddling forward... no matter how large shoulders you carry, although even more amplified benefit if you have smaller shoulders.

Standing area would not be so narrow that you'd feel cramped. Sidewalls can be made super narrow.

Price is a factor... but there's no reason to have a surfski cost $3000 complete with a rudder system, built with super high tech material and construction methods... while a simple carbon board without a rudder costs more than $3800. Note, that under the same construction method of surfskis, a board could be lighter by about 30% and cost about 20% less.

You are arguments aren't totally sound when you take a closer look at the above details - because I don't think I am the only one needing a "different board" that kinda away from today's norm.

Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

Area 10

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #166 on: May 03, 2016, 03:24:34 AM »
I think there is some misunderstanding here. I'm suggesting that you get EXACTLY the board you want custom made. You can have a bow shaped like a pig's tail if you want when you go custom! To make one like a surfski would be trivially easy for a skilled shaper.

raf

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #167 on: May 03, 2016, 04:25:27 AM »
Photofr, you should have this dream board made, and enter some races and see whats up.  If you enjoy paddling in unlimiteds of course, which doesn't sound super rewarding.  To a bunch of us, its obvious why the board you are proposing doesn't exist yet.  Mostly because none of us would buy it.  A-10 lays out the reasons why.  So you need to convince people they are wrong on many fronts here; we should be racing 16-21 foot boards (surf-skis), round hulls are stable enough, knife edged, high bows aren't really so bad in the wind and in fact don't make steering in a side-wind a total nightmare, sunken decks are convenient, etc etc. 

Clearly you have some very firm ideas.  Make it happen!  Then show people they are wrong. 

SUPflorida

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #168 on: May 03, 2016, 06:58:13 AM »
Photofr it seems that you will eventually come to the conclusion that the only way your going to get your vision fleshed out it to start shaping your own boards. I never see a board that is exactly what I want eaither... So I just build what I want, the way I want it with the materials I want. Try it you'll like it...

photofr

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #169 on: May 03, 2016, 07:59:03 AM »
You guys just don't get it: it's NOT FOR ME, and it's not about me. It's about sharing an idea that we, as humans, must always think away from the norm.

I was first involved in the late 80's in the creation of new plugs for surfskis. I have a pretty good idea of what will work and what will not work at 5 MPH - just like without throwing a glass of water at your friend's face, you know exactly what will happen.

When you start looking at it as how we can make it better, faster, more efficient, and more affordable, you will then start looking at solutions to all the other problems that may arise. For example, you raise the bow for volume, you're gonna get pushed around with a side wind, and you'll need to do something about that. Possible solutions: raise the tail, and or add a rudder, and or place a ventral fin...

In any case, clearly, we are all passionate about the sport... otherwise, we wouldn't be writing up 6 pages on TRYING to think outside the box. Let's just speed the process now. :)
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

Area 10

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #170 on: May 03, 2016, 08:32:02 AM »
We get it just fine, photofr. It's just that we don't agree with you on the solution.

For example, you say "...you raise the bow for volume, you're gonna get pushed around with a side wind, and you'll need to do something about that. Possible solutions: raise the tail, and or add a rudder, and or place a ventral fin...".

Yep, well:

Not quite sure what you mean by raise the tail but if you mean add more volume then you'll end up with a board that will catch chop, has more volume etc and if you mean add rocker then that changes the whole dynamics of the board in too many ways to start listing.

If you add a rudder then you add weight, complexity, reduce the surf-ability of the board, and won't be able to race it in most races(assuming we are talking 14ft).

If you place a ventral fin then you impair buoy turning, surf-ability, and downwind capability.

You seem to be assuming that we haven't already given all this stuff a lot of thought. But we have. And a lot of us have tried out a lot of different things. But we are always willing to try new stuff, so build a board the way that you are convinced will be best, and show us that you are right. We'd be just as delighted to see something new as you are.







« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 08:41:06 AM by Area 10 »

photofr

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #171 on: May 03, 2016, 09:18:31 AM »
Funny story: I was covering an event last year, a pretty nice downwind no less. I positioned myself in the middle of the course, with about 15k of photo gear. Took my photos, and started making my way back to shore with a side wind. It was brutal, because I was beat, and paddling with a full-on side wind has never been my favorite.

I had about 4km to get to shore... so lots of time to think about the problem. Then, it occurred to me: the bow was getting hammered by the wind because there was no fin under the belly. I most certainly wasn't gonna install one in the middle of the ocean, so I did the next best thing.

I took my huge camera dry bag, added even more air in it, and strapped it on the back to offset the front wind pressure. Seriously, this was the next best thing to a miracle: it worked like a charm.

So when I say, add volume on your stern, I don't mean add rocker: just add surface for the wind to hit.

From that experience, I know that I can add volume in the back to compensate a large bow. But for those not wanting to do that, you'll need a rudder to solve the problem on your 14 footer.

Racing?
I am still trying to think outside the box... racing is last on my list... just like full-on race boards are the least sold SUP boards in the world.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

Eagle

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #172 on: May 03, 2016, 11:11:31 AM »
When my wife and I tested the AS 25 CS we had zero water in the standing area.  And zero as well for the AS 23 CS.  According to SB - scuppers are not necessary as water just flows out the back.  Are you really getting lots of water ponding where you are standing?

Insofar as increasing height at the tail to offset height at the bow - SB did this to an extent on the Ace.  So it seems what you are looking for is a needle nose deep vee Ace pintail with an extremely elevated height bow and a high tail area to compensate for side wind.  Deep low waterline COG cockpit with thin high sides and scuppers for stability.  Plus a narrow rockered width for paddling efficiency - that
performs really good in ocean conditions.  Is that about right?

And that being the average joe - go to 14' different board - for the masses.
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

photofr

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #173 on: May 03, 2016, 11:28:17 AM »
When my wife and I tested the AS 25 CS we had zero water in the standing area.  And zero as well for the AS 23 CS.  According to SB - scuppers are not necessary as water just flows out the back.  Are you really getting lots of water ponding where you are standing?

When paddling in totally flat water: zero water enters the "cockpit area".
When paddling in calm ocean, same thing: no water.
When paddling in the ocean with 15+MPH of wind, OR when crossing any boat wake, a little bit of water make its way over the bow, and onto the cockpit... and just stays there. Note: I am not talking about gallons of water, perhaps 1/2 cup at most, but enough to freeze your feet after staying wet in freezing cold water for about 3 hours.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

Eagle

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #174 on: May 03, 2016, 12:06:04 PM »
What if I tell you that on a calm day, my feet are constantly in a puddle of water when paddling my Allstar 14x25 - with my feather weight?
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

Area 10

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #175 on: May 03, 2016, 01:37:54 PM »
photofr- if you like surfskis and unlimited SUPs so much, why are you selling your surfski and your unlimited SUP?

SUPflorida

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #176 on: May 03, 2016, 01:53:22 PM »
photofr- if you like surfskis and unlimited SUPs so much, why are you selling your surfski and your unlimited SUP?

Area 10...as say in the south...."now you gone to meddling "...lol

photofr

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #177 on: May 03, 2016, 02:06:38 PM »
photofr- if you like surfskis and unlimited SUPs so much, why are you selling your surfski and your unlimited SUP?

My Unlimited board is my favorite for flat water, and super long distance for average or calm days in the Ocean. It's fantastic for balance training, and or just all around training, including technique. I am ordering the 2016 model, because it's the last year they will be making it. Since that's about $4400 for the new one, I thought I'd sale my older (but sound) Unlimited board.

As for my surfski, I just ordered the brand new NELO 560M... on its way.
There's no reason to keep my current V10 GT - ultra light surfski: its designed specifically for taller and heavier paddler than me...

My crafts of choice will hopefully include:
Surfski for super rough days in the ocean.
14 feet flat water board.
14 all around board.
UL flat water board.
UL DW board - totally optional.

Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

Area 10

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #178 on: May 03, 2016, 02:41:55 PM »
photofr- if you like surfskis and unlimited SUPs so much, why are you selling your surfski and your unlimited SUP?

Area 10...as say in the south...."now you gone to meddling "...lol
Haha! But apparently not. He's just buying new ones. So I think we've avoided the Battle of Trafalgar #2 ;)

 


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