Author Topic: TRYING to think outside the box  (Read 43553 times)

Ichabod Spoonbill

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #150 on: May 02, 2016, 08:56:05 AM »


Out of curiosity, how would you say this board's nose fits in your "pantheon of noses"? Is this surfski or kayak?


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pdxmike

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #151 on: May 02, 2016, 09:37:41 AM »
One thing about thinking outside the box is that when it works--or sometimes even when it doesn't--it changes the box.  Some of the Starboards from a few years ago looked like nothing else, with their thickness and deeply recessed decks.  Even the Bark boards that look so conventional today weren't so conventional when they came out, which is probably why it seemed like everyone in the NW was racing on one for a year or two.


So there's already been a lot of thinking outside the box, it's just not that noticeable now because people have got used to shapes and ideas that were quite unusual when they came out.

Eagle

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #152 on: May 02, 2016, 10:34:09 AM »
Seems that designers have thought outside the box years ago.  The Think SUP is directly derived from surf skis - and even has the hollow core as noted.  The reason why it is not narrower forward simply has to do with tippy balance issues.  That concept and design has certain limitations - and going narrower with a straighter outline is faster.  Just try one and test it firsthand yourself.

If you want a narrower one - just ask Daryl if he will make a one-off for you.  Ohana made slender shapes in UL long ago.
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Chilly

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #153 on: May 02, 2016, 11:26:13 AM »
This guy was thinking outside the box.
There was one at the Carolina Cup.
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Eagle

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Area 10

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #155 on: May 02, 2016, 11:42:45 AM »
SUP design feature #1001 that was tried and largely abandoned... the teardrop outline, with narrow nose and the widest point behind the standing area, courtesy of Morelli and Melvin (yacht designers):









Good call on Ohana btw, Eagle. They were one of the first to incorporate design features from other watercraft such as OC or surfski etc. From certain angles in pictures you'd have to look hard to be sure what kind of craft it was.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 11:47:41 AM by Area 10 »

pdxmike

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #156 on: May 02, 2016, 01:07:46 PM »
SUP design feature #1001 that was tried and largely abandoned... the teardrop outline, with narrow nose and the widest point behind the standing area, courtesy of Morelli and Melvin (yacht designers):
Those M&Ms were pretty popular here in the NW for flatwater for awhile--not among the masses, but among several top paddlers.  If there was any consensus about why they didn't stick, I think (speaking from memory, not experience or certainty) it was that they were a bit tippy, maybe a bit low volume and low strength for large paddlers, and maybe a bit expensive and not widely available.  So I'm not sure the design features that made it stand out that you mentioned were relevant or not to its drop in popularity.


The shape reminds me a bit of PonoBill's Speedboard, but on the other hand, I don't think other manufacturers pursued that design direction, which is a clue that at least for them, it wasn't a promising direction.  Or maybe those features got set aside in the quest for making more all-around designs, and the shape could still be good for flatwater...

Area 10

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #157 on: May 02, 2016, 01:21:12 PM »
Yeah I think the discussion was that it was promising for pure flat water but where pitch was likely to be an issue you could find yourself pointed downhill, especially with a reverse bow.

Still on sale from Boardworks btw. 40% off too, if anyone fancies trying one, and comparing it with more recent designs.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 01:32:33 PM by Area 10 »

photofr

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #158 on: May 02, 2016, 02:05:07 PM »
Very interesting share. The shape of the Ohana has all the "right ingredients" and that was most certainly thinking outside the box. It may have been dismissed as a UL board, because of being a..... UL.

I still haven't seen any board that would incorporate as many sought out features as the 18x25 Phana.... into a 14-footer board, but that would be quite interesting to see.

Great share though, thanks!

BTW. The new Ohana look quite different today.
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Eagle

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #159 on: May 02, 2016, 05:07:11 PM »
The M&M was apparently derived from their cat yacht designs and was a nice try - but SUP speeds are way too slow for the concept to fly.  Just got back from a 8 mile loop on the Dom and that board still performs like a champ.  D2 would have been better today - but you use what you got.  Was thinking that the AS 23 CS would have been perfect today.  But in the end - the extra workout was fine.  The silent zen slice of water is always just right.

You may be waiting for a while to get anything closer to a surf ski SUP design with your specific parameters - than what is already out there.  Flat water 14 needles surf ski inspired - are just too small market and too tippy for mass market consumption.

If you want to feel tippy today on a 14 - just stand right forward on the deep vee Dom or the Think deep vee SUP.  Both are rolly polly - but have excellent secondary stability.

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photofr

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #160 on: May 02, 2016, 11:53:14 PM »
Yeah, I'd love to see that surfski SUP for flat water... but I'd much rather see THE surfski SUP for Open Ocean first. It wouldn't even have to be more than 14 feet, just so that I wouldn't have to have a zillion boards at the house.
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Area 10

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #161 on: May 03, 2016, 12:15:00 AM »
In what ways do you think that the board you are wishing for (as a 14fter) would be better than the Starboard All Star you already have?

photofr

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #162 on: May 03, 2016, 12:40:25 AM »
In what ways do you think that the board you are wishing for (as a 14fter) would be better than the Starboard All Star you already have?

That's a good question, and I don't know for sure - until we start thinking quite differently.
For starter, my Allstar is super versatile, but it's still about 12 kilos. Having a board that would be 8 or 9 kilos would make a huge difference, at least for me. The ratio of my weight (125 pounds) vs. the weight of the board is nearly 10% of my weight. Lowering that ratio by about 30% feels fantastic.

Next, the entry point of my paddle. I feel like I am reaching so much away from the center of my body with each stroke. It's like if you guys would be on a 32" board and had to reach way out there... strange feeling, right? Well, a needle nose board would solve that (for me). Right there, I'd be faster as I would be more efficient in paddling. I know this from having had needle nose boards. There's also less strain on the body for super long ventures.

The standing area would be lowered, and by a whole lot. This would offset the needle nose stability, or lack thereof. Rails would be stiffened with new technology that we currently have to offset the structure stiffness or lack thereof, due to digging the standing area.

In the end, the board would still have rocker, still be as versatile as an Allstar, still a GO TO board for most days, still a 14', still a SUP, but it would be quieter on the water, and glide even better.

... and then I woke up 

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #163 on: May 03, 2016, 01:39:55 AM »
Ok, so all three points you raise are substantially related to the fact that you are smaller than average. I am a fairly broad build person (size L or sometimes XL shirts) and find that I don't need a board narrower than 25" wide to get a natural stroke. When I've tried 23" wide boards I find my foot space cramped. So I don't think that a needle nose would bring me much advantage.

Next, lowered standing areas are great for stability and for allowing use of a shorter paddle, but they also mean that you have a birdbath effect in choppy waters that has to be solved by the designer somehow, and clambering into a high sided boat in choppy conditions is deeply unpleasant, and leads to all kinds of knocks and scrapes. Plus, beach starts with sunken decks are a total pain - often literally. I saw one of the UK's top racers struggle with beach starts using an Ace at the ISA Worlds last year...

As for the weight, well boards that are lighter are always nice. But since I'm a stocky build, anything under 30lbs is pretty fine by me. Especially if going lighter is going to mean an increase in cost by 40%, as is the current premium for Starboard carbon over their hybrid construction.

So, there you have it. Three reasons why the board you want doesn't exist in a production line-up. None of them have much to do with how the board moves in the water. But all are ergonomic factors that affect people's paddling/racing/purchasing decisions.

I think that what need is a board that is designed specifically for your size, uses, and skills set. This means that you will have to go custom, because production boards are built for the masses, not the one percenters like you.

Grey Paddleboards in the UK make superb, durable, light and narrow boards, and it wouldn't be difficult to get one shipped to you. Some of the UK's top racers (who are also smallish) have been winning on them. Or you could take a trip over to paddle with us in the cold and windy UK, and pick up a board at the same time. Maybe do a couple of races while you are here. We'd be very pleased to take you out and show you the huge variety of conditions we have here. You could even hook up with UKRiverSurfers maybe and go river surfing.

photofr

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #164 on: May 03, 2016, 01:55:47 AM »
HUmmmmm... let's not forget what we have talked about and discussed for about 2 pages: a bow like a surfski that cuts water.

Otherwise, someone will have to explain to me why surfskis have evolved FROM a bow that pushes water (like an Ace) and into NOW THE DEEP V.

Seriously: are you going to sit there and tell me that from your experience, a bow that pushes water is faster at 5MPH than a surfski bow???
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