Author Topic: TRYING to think outside the box  (Read 43557 times)

UKRiverSurfers

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #120 on: May 01, 2016, 02:58:55 AM »
So all these newbies paddling around on the Thames on thier RED balloons are under the illusion that they are doing a form of surfing to look 'cool'... They're not, they are canoeing - all be it, standing up.

SUP is a Paddling unless there's surf on offer
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 03:02:49 AM by UKRiverSurfers »
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Area 10

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #121 on: May 01, 2016, 03:08:48 AM »
Ok, well I think we are in danger of descending into bickering if we continue like this, so let's agree to differ and move on. Although we share quite a lot of past sporting backgrounds, later in life we have diverged. So it's natural perhaps that we'd have different views on what is good and bad about SUP, and where it should be heading in the future. That's all well and good, and makes for a lively and hopefully useful debate.

UKRiverSurfers

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #122 on: May 01, 2016, 03:16:23 AM »
Paul - I wouldn't debate like it with anyone else.

Fact is - it's all online - type.

No body language, no subtle cues.

That's what wrong with the other platform.

I currently have 3 nice standing waves on offer which is where I'm heading now on my 7'2 'river surfer'

Feel free to join me... Only takes an hour and fifteen from darn sarf :)

I frequently drive down there for a couple of glides :)

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UKRiverSurfers

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #123 on: May 01, 2016, 03:33:31 AM »
Having just watched the vid of the 11" wide needle, in answer to JTs question, yes!

I'd love to see a branch of flat water SUP just like it :) it would awesome.

It's only one twig on a branch of a bigger branch on a huge tree.


An excellent article btw.

There's another similar article written by Corran Adison about regs regarding length and width etc, and how they have hindered progress over the decades in kayaking.

That article is on here somewhere deep in the zone pages.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 03:37:13 AM by UKRiverSurfers »
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powermi

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #124 on: May 01, 2016, 04:48:50 AM »
Talking about thinking outside of the box... I think that there are a few Brands doing it, but most of us are stuck on the Big Brands.

I really like how Brands as Imagine surf, Hala, Badfish and Riotsup are thinking.

photofr

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #125 on: May 01, 2016, 05:37:59 AM »
I can't believe it: I leave you guys for a 20k paddle, and come back to find that you have also been very "busy". :)

You both make some good points, but I cannot help but set the record straight:
Surfskis used to be difficult for beginners to "master" and "enjoy". As mentioned, it can take years, but that was THEN.

Today, I can take a totally novice paddler, put them on a Nelo 520 or Epic V8 and watch them smile after 10 minutes. Said person could race within couple of months if they wanted to give it a go.

HEALTHY
You want to talk about tuned bodies: surfskis will also provide amazing abs, and magically remove unwanted fat. Just ask my girlfriend: she doesn't talk much, but she's a lot more concise than I am: and will confirm this.

ELITES ONLY
I do not intend SUP to look identical to surfskis, nor have I said that. In fact, I do not want SUP to be an elite sport only for the elite.

DIVERSITY
It's important to note that surfskis for elite paddlers are usually 16.5 inches in width, just like elite open ocean SUP are about 24 inches in width. Kayaks for flat water are very round hulls with about 14 inches in width at the water line, but the SUP industry DOES NOT YET provide a 20 inch SUP designed only for flat water use.

On the other hand, there are many SUP for beginners in the 28 inch range, the same way we have 21 inch surfskis for beginners.

MISSING SUP
I guess we could sum it up with the following SUP that are definitely missing:
Flat water specific SUP board for the ultimate glide (about 20 inches as mentioned above). It could be for racing, or just for the joy of paddling.
All around SUP that's efficient in ALL OCEAN CONDITIONS. That would be the 27 inch SUP, with a Deep V Bow, needle nose for both easy paddle entry and for the best possible glides in open ocean.

However, someone hit the spot when they said that they mentioned that Stand Up Paddling was in fact so accessible, and provided total freedom. The idea is great, but it's wrong. As of today, SUP is very restrictive with mandatory sizes, width restriction, rudder restrictions, etc... But without going there, fair to say that the 27" wide SUP would satisfy all restrictions.

Bottom line: I paddled hard today, against current both ways. I had a wonderful time, but I can't say that I was really gliding. I was more like: pushing water in open ocean, and dragging something (otherwise known as turbulence).

BTW: fantastic photo of the 18 feet UL (the black and white one). So same thing, in 25 or 26 inches, perhaps at 9 kilos or less.

I still think we are all pretty much on the same page, with only a few differences.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 05:42:17 AM by photofr »
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Arany

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #126 on: May 01, 2016, 06:16:09 AM »
I took the fire st sup that I build and want him to be for trainings  so I cut him in half and took 10 cm from the middle I could  stand on him just if maybe I put more  fins on him he is to much maybe fast but can't  paddle  him if it's not flat

UKRiverSurfers

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #127 on: May 01, 2016, 06:25:45 AM »
Talking about thinking outside of the box... I think that there are a few Brands doing it, but most of us are stuck on the Big Brands.

I really like how Brands as Imagine surf, Hala, Badfish and Riotsup are thinking.

Badfish = Badass as far as I'm concerned!
If got a few of thier designs! Those guys are true crossover paddlers :)
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pdxmike

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #128 on: May 01, 2016, 11:40:54 AM »
Here is a UL SUP shaped much like a surfski, shaped by a surf ski racer, but raced by me.  This was made 5 years ago. 24.5" wide X 18'.  Wide point 1.5' behind the standing area or "Swede" outline.  Won me a few races but its not real fun to only race against a handful of UL's when most the field is on 14's.  Not sure how the surfski design would translate into shorter race boards.


I remember the first time I saw that board, and having to look twice to realize it was a standup board--and that was (I recall) at Round the Rock, where it should have been obvious.  I think my very first thought was, "Wow, adidas came out with a board!"

I also remember the first time I saw surfskis--on a roof rack up in Puget Sound.  Too low to be kayaks, too thick to be SUPs. It was eye-opening.

There may never be a seamless transition between the two, since one involves standing and one sitting, but I'd love to see more cross-over between the two, and more boards like this one or some of the others posted earlier.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 11:44:12 AM by pdxmike »

Area 10

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #129 on: May 01, 2016, 12:59:55 PM »
If anyone wants a board like that, it's perfectly possible to get one. Just ring up someone like Mark Raaphorst and get one made for you.

Sub-20" width is boards are coming, I'm sure. I won't be paddling them, nor will anyone I paddle with. But it is inevitable that some will. And all two dozen of them in the country can meet up on a lake somewhere and race them in straight lines. Just another niche within the broad SUP church.

photofr

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #130 on: May 01, 2016, 01:12:12 PM »
Funny how I share two ideas, and you choose the ONLY ONE that includes the smallest niche of participants. Hey: to each its own.
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powermi

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #131 on: May 01, 2016, 01:29:31 PM »
Yo be honest I would say that the greatest thing from SUP are the inflatables, easy to carry and eco friendly. I think that makers should improve the tech and shapes, then the competitions would be more fair.

pdxmike

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #132 on: May 01, 2016, 03:06:26 PM »
If anyone wants a board like that, it's perfectly possible to get one. Just ring up someone like Mark Raaphorst and get one made for you.

Sub-20" width is boards are coming, I'm sure. I won't be paddling them, nor will anyone I paddle with. But it is inevitable that some will. And all two dozen of them in the country can meet up on a lake somewhere and race them in straight lines. Just another niche within the broad SUP church.
What I like about greatdane's board is that he went to someone with a surfski background, which took some faith.  Personally, I love when anyone gets a custom board from anyone, and especially the unlimiteds.  It's a chance to break free a bit from stock boards, which by their nature are rarely extreme designs.


I'd love to see sub-20" boards as well.  It only makes sense that they're coming.  People (and not just lightweights with insane balance) are using 23" Javelins--a tippy board for almost anyone--downwinding in the Gorge.  A 20" board in flat conditions--especially for a light paddler with great balance, and especially also if it had a deep deck, wide tail, and rails and fin conducive to stability--isn't much more extreme than a 23" Javelin in the Gorge.  Also, I've heard the new standard Javelin is more stable than the old, and it still doesn't have a deeply recessed deck.  In general, designers are learning how to make narrow boards more stable, and not in ways that add great cost.


Also, while there's not widespread interest in either unlimiteds or narrow boards, I don't think the current or potential interest is limited only to racing.  There's pleasure in going fast and mastering a challenging board just for its own sake.  I can see those types of boards becoming more prevalent without having any negative impact on racing (in regard to turning racing into a tiny sport for balance freaks on costly boards).

Area 10

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #133 on: May 01, 2016, 04:03:06 PM »
Yes - for sure, sub20s are almost here already. That is why I'm puzzled as to why anyone who really wants one isn't already buying one. We've currently got a thread on this forum from someone who is building a 12-6x21.5. So if it was a 14fter it could be pretty close to 20. And that is a board that isn't just for use on a rowing lake.

So just get one made, and then show us the pics. There's no point anyone complaining that the big brands aren't making a 14'x19" stand-up surfski because the market would be far too small for big brand orders made at Cobra. But that's OK, that's what custom board builders are for. The move to sub20s will probably come too late for most of the old geezers who populate this forum, but the young kids who are getting into SUP now will find balancing these boards fairly trivial once they are well into their teens and have 10 years and thousands of hours' of SUPing behind them.

By the way, I have no idea how the idea of copying other watercraft became an example of "thinking outside the box" in this thread. Surely there is nothing more firmly "in the box" than copying other well-established designs? The fact that at least some SUPs don't look much like any other watercraft is a good sign that SUP shapers are truly approaching the problem with a fresh eye. I think SUP designers have been hugely creative over the last 7 years or so.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 04:23:04 PM by Area 10 »

TeachSB

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #134 on: May 01, 2016, 05:34:58 PM »
Seems to me that (generally speaking) there are four things that make a paddle craft fast. Length, narrowness, a pointy outline, and rounded rails. We see all of that in a surf ski (or a kayak for that matter).  The problem with SUP was always combining those in a way that allows people to balance on the board. Seems that in recent days board builders have decided that achieving a minimal width was the most important variable for speed, so they ditched the other stuff and made the rails hard and the outline wider. Just look at the Focus bluefin at 24.5" wide for a production board.

Going for the needle nose of a surf ski on a 14' board would drive the widths back up. Yes, I agree that people could learn to paddle it but it will always be wider than aboard with a thicker outline. I think Area10 is right that we should be approaching sup with an open mind rather than copying other designs.

That being said, I'm going to mock-up a surf ski inspired SUP on shape3d and we'll see what it looks like.

-Teach
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