Author Topic: TRYING to think outside the box  (Read 43549 times)

photofr

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #90 on: April 30, 2016, 12:50:30 PM »
Among others:



http://www.huki.com/index.php?page=SUP_14_Flat_Conditions#prettyPhoto

The above is a near-perfect adaptation of a surfski design for Stand Up Paddling, unfortunately lacking rocker for an all around board. This is still the closest thing I have seen, and kudos to HUKI, once again. Too bad there isn't a single one of them in France.
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photofr

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #91 on: April 30, 2016, 01:17:19 PM »
The COREBAN is also far away from the current SUP design I am seeing on the market.

Has anyone ever seen one, tried one, and or seen some feedback for this board?
Was it heavy?

To answer some of the questions...
Yes, I do realize that the center of gravity is very different on a SUP than on a SURFSKI. The point that I am trying to share with you guys is that a) it's not impossible to paddle a surfski standing up. b) surfski that are 14 feet long and plenty stable glide better than most boards I have ever been on, so there must be an error on the SUP somewhere. c) thinking outside the box doesn't mean to come up with a SUP that's gonna be 21" in width. Broadening one's design would include a SUP that would be adapted to standing up comfortably, with very little balance issues. d) I am seeing the words "deep cutting again" and that is NOT what I am talking about. A surfski does not have a deep cutting bow like a K-1 flat water. Finally, e) It would have some aspects of a surfski, could look similar to the HUKI with more volume up front and more rocker, with the ultimate goal to make this SUP ideal for all OPEN WATER CONDITIONS, including flat water...

So yes, it would look like a surfski, but will be far more stable, so the COG doesn't even come into play, because it goes without saying.

BTW: Drafting couldn't be further from "Thinking outside the box".

And now, for a bit of mockery: Totally Glassy Conditions.


Back to reality...
Board: 17.6x23"
Distance: 42 km
Overall average speed: 8.9 km/h on a round trip.
Paddler: average joe, 5 feet 6 inches. 
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Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

robon

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #92 on: April 30, 2016, 01:25:41 PM »
The feedback on the Coreban was that it got pushed around quite a bit in side chop but did well in flatter water. I got to check out the Coreban Vision, which was the 12'6" model, and it was nice, but the same thing. it didn't have a dug out standing area but gets pushed around in mixed conditions. The feedback on the Huki was also similar. Flat water board.

http://epic-boardsports.com/race-review-14-coreban-edge/

http://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/Coreban-Edge-Flatwater-Review/

http://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/This-Looks-Fast/
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 01:35:41 PM by robon »

supuk

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #93 on: April 30, 2016, 02:28:15 PM »
The Corban turbo is one of the only boards I have got on and wanted to swim back to the beach rather than paddle.

mrbig

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #94 on: April 30, 2016, 04:49:41 PM »
Photofr, Imagine paddling a 12'6" Exocet Marlin with a boof nose and the primary and secondary stability of a log.

I thought nobody in the world paddled in PERFECT GLASS!

Great pic!
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Area 10

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #95 on: April 30, 2016, 06:16:02 PM »
I've paddled the Coreban Edge, Turbo, a couple of the 12-6s, and also their 14 that pre-dated these, which was also an interesting design that you should look at. What do you want to know about them, photofr?

If you are so sure you know what would be a revolutionary step forward for SUP board design, then put your money where your mouth is and get a custom done to your specifications. Maybe you'll be right, maybe you won't. But at least when you post about it we won't be reading yet another Starboard fanboy promo :)

Eagle

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #96 on: April 30, 2016, 07:10:44 PM »
The problem with a high surf ski nose on a SUP is the huge amount of windage.  As noted before - Daryl at Think talked to me about that.  He thought that to be too problematic from a design aspect. 

His hollow SUP designs still are in production btw.  For those unfamiliar his primary business is selling surf skis.  Did demo his hollow SUP and surf skis a few times now - and both are quite nice.  His SUP felt quite efficient but did tend to roll a bit as it has a no hard edges.  Did you ever try the Think SUP before making your conclusions?

http://thinkstandup.com/construction/
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TeachSB

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #97 on: April 30, 2016, 07:42:12 PM »
I'm confused. Photofr is claiming that he wants to stand up paddle a surf ski. And he showed a picture of himself doing it. So, why don't you just paddle your surf ski?
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pdxmike

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #98 on: April 30, 2016, 08:51:39 PM »
I'm confused. Photofr is claiming that he wants to stand up paddle a surf ski. And he showed a picture of himself doing it. So, why don't you just paddle your surf ski?
Not fair to photofr, and I don't think confusing to anyone else, given the several pages of great discussion by some really knowledgeable people, all sparked by photofr.


I especially like seeing this discussion about looking at board design from a non-typical perspective, while at the same time seeing the Kai Lenny downwind foil on the other thread--totally exciting to see ideas from outside getting pulled into standup board design.

zachhandler

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #99 on: April 30, 2016, 09:06:40 PM »
I am not sure what my point is here, and it is definitely not a put down on SUP. But when I think about ski vs SUP the learning curves are quite different. In my experience your average athletic person with no paddle background will take several years to be able to paddle a 17" wide race Ski on glassy flat water without constantly swimming. Add a couple more years to be competent in waves, and then after that they can start to learn to catch bumps.  With SUP it seems any athletic person can stand on a narrow race board and paddle around a pond from day one. They paddle terribly, but at least they can balance. Perhaps it is because as bipeds we all know how to balance on our feet, whereas butt balance is not intuitive.

Maybe my point is that there is probably great untapped potential to paddle much tipper SUP than we do now, as long as people are willing to start young and allow more years to master. I can't find it right now, but there are videos of people in China paddling long bamboo logs, maybe 6" wide, stand up style, down a wide River, using a bamboo stick as the paddle.

TeachSB

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #100 on: April 30, 2016, 09:15:23 PM »
Ok.  I don't want anyone to be offended by my post. What I mean is, why not paddle the surf ski? What does it do that you don't like?  I ask because understanding the weakness of stand up paddling a surf ski is another way to tackle the problem. 

We can start with a sup and try to make it more like a surf ski, or we can start with a surf ski and try to make it more like a sup.  I think it could be smart to do both.

Photo, hope no offense is taken from my question, I am well aware that you're a very accomplished paddler trying to add to our collective knowledge.

- Teach
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greatdane

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #101 on: April 30, 2016, 09:24:54 PM »
I don't really agree on couple of points...

Compared to most paddlers, I was really late getting into the sport of "paddling". I started on surfskis at age 17, granted I have put in a lot of hours into the sport. I was surfing Pipes and Sunset way before I ever got a paddle into my hands. However, I would rather see SUP getting closer to surfskis than to windsurf boards.

You are right: UL seem to have died in its path. For a moment, let's just leave out the rudder system. Let's focus on the bow for downwind or chop. We know we need volume, and we know we need a narrow catch. Take a K15, make it 10 pounds, add volume to the bow (for all intent and purpose, make its bow look like a surfski) but make the rails a little harder for stability. Yes, you would have a stand up paddle board that differs greatly from most boards out there.

We'll eventually have to agree that the first surfskis were looking exactly like the current 2016 boards, and they have ALL gone away from that shape for the simple and good reason that there were more efficient bows.

In the end, The SUP of the future may have a bow that will look a little like a surfski, but the SUP in question will 1) look very differently overall, and 2) may not require "piloting" them.

It's cool if people don't see the benefits of a narrow catch, but for as long as shapers don't see the interest in narrow bows, we will have more handicaps while paddling, especially for those of us carrying smaller shoulders. Shapers could (at least) bevel the catch area of the boards...

Here is a UL SUP shaped much like a surfski, shaped by a surf ski racer, but raced by me.  This was made 5 years ago. 24.5" wide X 18'.  Wide point 1.5' behind the standing area or "Swede" outline.  Won me a few races but its not real fun to only race against a handful of UL's when most the field is on 14's.  Not sure how the surfski design would translate into shorter race boards.
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UKRiverSurfers

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #102 on: May 01, 2016, 12:58:42 AM »
At this time of year a small tent in the garden is enough to get a prototype water tight and with a cnc blank it takes a lot of mess out. There is staks on info on the web about building. A functional prototype can be done relatively quickly. The best thing to do is learn shape3d first

Erm - I found that program cumbersome.

In my early days as a designer way before my water sports career started - I was s graphic designer (trainee) I dropped out because it was just as Macs appeared on the scene.. Design and computers do not make for creativity imo

My shape 3D is in my head. Old fashioned way.

I will make small prototypes and test them in my 'swim lab' :)
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UKRiverSurfers

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #103 on: May 01, 2016, 01:03:13 AM »
Do we all agree on the following?
The majority of SUP paddlers will seek flatter, calmer waters (in lakes, rivers, and ocean).
To be efficient, a SUP board must cut the water.
To cut water, the bow (the nose, the front end) must look somewhat like a flat water kayak, or at the very least like a surfski.

Now then...
Can someone tell me WHY bows (the front end, the nose) of SUP boards don't cut water well, even in 2016 ???

It's because most of the guys with influence are surfers and windsurfers originally :)
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UKRiverSurfers

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #104 on: May 01, 2016, 01:06:24 AM »
Folks -

Let's call it a 'Deep V'

Not a 'cutting bow'


After all, every shape cuts through the water.

In my RYA days - a nose like that is a Deep V

Cutting bow makes us sound silly just like a 'stable' board
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