Author Topic: TRYING to think outside the box  (Read 43564 times)

supuk

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #60 on: April 30, 2016, 02:12:00 AM »
The reason for the changing in designs so much is realy no more than to create new sales and demand every September. Take a board from 2010 and compare it to a similar board from 2016 and i guarantee the perforce difference is minimal.
 
unfortunately with so many variables, the high centre of gravity with relatively low stability and they fact they get used in all sorts of conditions amongst other things it is far more complex than things like kayaking there are no books, mathematical equations, computer models that can take all the variables and apply them to give a definitive answer so it is left to shapers to basically feel there way to what work best with only basic principals and taking influences from else were. Do you think the design process of say a ww kayak is any different? remember we are not often paddling down a straight lake with glassy water evenly spaced apart, if that was the case maybe boards would almost be identical now.

What you see comping out on the market does not mean that things are not tested out the view of public eyes, its only on the odd occasions these ideas that don't work end up on the market. I have paddled a and seen a few boards that have been built via navel architects and while in a test tank they may appear fast in reality they were some of the worst boards i have ever paddled. Have you ever tried standup paddling a prone paddle boar,racing kayak,canoe or even a small sailing dingy for that matter, if you haven't i can tell you that there are very few things that cross over

I fully encourage people to take to there garage and try experimenting with board design as you learn so much in the process in what works and what does not.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 02:29:42 AM by supuk »

UKRiverSurfers

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2016, 02:36:00 AM »
Exactly - strategic marketing plans aka - dishonest!

I 'could' do it to my customers.
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UKRiverSurfers

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #62 on: April 30, 2016, 02:41:35 AM »
The reason for the changing in designs so much is realy no more than to create new sales and demand every September. Take a board from 2010 and compare it to a similar board from 2016 and i guarantee the perforce difference is minimal.
 
unfortunately with so many variables, the high centre of gravity with relatively low stability and they fact they get used in all sorts of conditions amongst other things it is far more complex than things like kayaking there are no books, mathematical equations, computer models that can take all the variables and apply them to give a definitive answer so it is left to shapers to basically feel there way to what work best with only basic principals and taking influences from else were. Do you think the design process of say a ww kayak is any different? remember we are not often paddling down a straight lake with glassy water evenly spaced apart, if that was the case maybe boards would almost be identical now.

What you see comping out on the market does not mean that things are not tested out the view of public eyes, its only on the odd occasions these ideas that don't work end up on the market. I have paddled a and seen a few boards that have been built via navel architects and while in a test tank they may appear fast in reality they were some of the worst boards i have ever paddled. Have you ever tried standup paddling a prone paddle boar,racing kayak,canoe or even a small sailing dingy for that matter, if you haven't i can tell you that there are very few things that cross over

I fully encourage people to take to there garage and try experimenting with board design as you learn so much in the process in what works and what does not.

Charlie - being a level 5 sailing instructor, I can sail a dinghy standing up, backwards, with no rudder :)

And - a world class ww kayaker, I can stand in a yak and surf a standing wave - Standing :)

I've heard all the stories related to strategic marketing in SUP and its plain & simple, wrong, bad karma, whatever.

In my quiver the nicest designs to paddle are from 6 years ago.
SIC Bullet 17v2 Custom
Richmond Custom Carbon 16'
Starboard Point 14'8
Starboard K15
Starboard Astro Touring 14
Starboad Big Easy
Redpaddle Ride 10'6
Badfish Rivershred
Jackson SUPercharger
Badfish MVP 9'o
Badfish IRS 7'2
Pack OC1 12'

UKRiverSurfers

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #63 on: April 30, 2016, 02:43:44 AM »
Not long ago - 99% of uk sup were saying 12'6! That's the best shape for DW in the uk...
Now - few months later, everyone's changed their minds again ::)
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UKRiverSurfers

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #64 on: April 30, 2016, 02:49:31 AM »
To me - they all crossover.

Every water discipline links to every other in some way.

They are all One.

The same.

I go to the same place whether I'm, Downwinding, butterfly swimming, freestyle, surfing, surf kayaking, body surfing, WW kayaking, WW SUPing, supsurfing,
Dinghy sailing, yachting, canal boat steering...

All the above are ONE.



"I can tell you that there are very few things that cross over"
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UKRiverSurfers

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #65 on: April 30, 2016, 02:52:51 AM »
That's actually where most water users are going wrong. They see different water sports as separate.

I get customers in my tank who struggle because they can't see the link between their windsurfing and thier triathlon swim!!!

As soon as they do see the link - they reach Nirvana and that's it. All life's 'problems' solved....


Learn the Wavecloud Way is my mantra  ;D ;D 8) :-*
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UKRiverSurfers

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #66 on: April 30, 2016, 02:54:23 AM »
Unless you wanna spend the rest of your life 'searching' ?  :)
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supuk

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #67 on: April 30, 2016, 03:18:07 AM »
Not long ago - 99% of uk sup were saying 12'6! That's the best shape for DW in the uk...
Now - few months later, everyone's changed their minds again ::)

I don't remember that atall that said with all things considered it does work very well, it realy sounds like you need to design your own board and try it out it would be great to see what you come up with with your sitting down paddleing back ground

UKRiverSurfers

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2016, 03:36:17 AM »
Not long ago - 99% of uk sup were saying 12'6! That's the best shape for DW in the uk...
Now - few months later, everyone's changed their minds again ::)

I don't remember that atall that said with all things considered it does work very well, it realy sounds like you need to design your own board and try it out it would be great to see what you come up with with your sitting down paddleing back ground

Charlie - I'm gagging to do that!! All my outhouses are still in a mess from the previous owners.

I was considering asking you to train me up in composites but I'm not sure you could put up with me for a week or more :)

Water dynamics I'm hot on but not so on composite
SIC Bullet 17v2 Custom
Richmond Custom Carbon 16'
Starboard Point 14'8
Starboard K15
Starboard Astro Touring 14
Starboad Big Easy
Redpaddle Ride 10'6
Badfish Rivershred
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Pack OC1 12'

supuk

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2016, 04:32:01 AM »
At this time of year a small tent in the garden is enough to get a prototype water tight and with a cnc blank it takes a lot of mess out. There is staks on info on the web about building. A functional prototype can be done relatively quickly. The best thing to do is learn shape3d first

photofr

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #70 on: April 30, 2016, 04:40:23 AM »
Do we all agree on the following?
The majority of SUP paddlers will seek flatter, calmer waters (in lakes, rivers, and ocean).
To be efficient, a SUP board must cut the water.
To cut water, the bow (the nose, the front end) must look somewhat like a flat water kayak, or at the very least like a surfski.

Now then...
Can someone tell me WHY bows (the front end, the nose) of SUP boards don't cut water well, even in 2016 ???


« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 04:42:18 AM by photofr »
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

supuk

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #71 on: April 30, 2016, 05:14:59 AM »
I don't think you can assume anything. Most know know after boards going through that faze If the water is flat and un interrupted a cutting bow works fine but as soon as it gets interrupted or you get cross chop from wind or other paddlers a deep keel type bow often gets  skewed in all sorts of directions in a less than controleable manor. It's a similar reason a aircraft wing has a rounded leading edge and not sharp like a trailing edge.

Bean

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #72 on: April 30, 2016, 05:17:48 AM »
Photofr, the major mfg's might not agree with your first assertion.  They are producing boards that can do it all; a one board race quiver.

Arany

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #73 on: April 30, 2016, 05:57:44 AM »
I  try to build my 3 sup now the shape  isn't  easy because  flat water  is different  then chop and dw is different story I can't  stand good on less then 26  and ther  is more to take to accounts  for I would  love to see someone  nail it all good luck

Area 10

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Re: TRYING to think outside the box
« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2016, 08:08:32 AM »
Do we all agree on the following?
The majority of SUP paddlers will seek flatter, calmer waters (in lakes, rivers, and ocean).
To be efficient, a SUP board must cut the water.
To cut water, the bow (the nose, the front end) must look somewhat like a flat water kayak, or at the very least like a surfski.

Now then...
Can someone tell me WHY bows (the front end, the nose) of SUP boards don't cut water well, even in 2016 ???
It's easy to find a cutting bow board if you want one. You can find just about every shape of nose/bow if you want it.

One of the reasons that cutting bows are not universally used on race boards is that they do not necessarily draft as well as a more forgiving shape. Since drafting is such a huge part of racing these days, a successful raceboard has to be good at it.

Remember that only a very small proportion of people who buy SUPs actually rave seriously. Most want a board that is more than a one-trick pony. Cutting bows, for instance, tend to be pretty dreadful downwind. I'd like to know how many All Stars Starboard sells for every Sprint.

I think it's absolute codswallop to say that SUP shapers have not looked at what has worked for other types of watercraft. Over the last 8 years or so you can find SUP designs that have utilised just about every major type of nose or hull shape. Some SUPs have been designed by people from other Watersports backgrounds. In the main, they have been pretty abysmal. SUP is a new sport, and what we want from our boards is evolving super-fast. When I started downwinding, around 2009, there was only one other person I knew in the UK who did it regulary. Most people in the UK had never even heard of it. Now everyone wants to try it (quite rightly too!) and there is even going to be a specialist DW race. So this is a new demand for shapers to meet. Similar thing with WW SUPing. Or SUP yoga, fishing, touring, etc etc. They have all sprung up pretty much within the last 5 years. So shapers are having to change designs fast to meet these new demands - not ONLY as a marketing strategy (although that is also a factor for sure). And none of these activities particularly lends itself to a cutting bow.

So overall, I think this thread has taken a rather grouchy and curmudgeonly turn, that fails to take into account the true breadth of SUP as a sport, and could only be supported by taking a narrow view on what has happened over the last 10 years. There are certainly things to complain about in SUP (eg. cost and construction of equipment, questionable marketing, failures to organise ourselves at an international level etc etc), but in that context to complain about the lack of cutting bows, or failure to copy other watercraft seems to me rather peverse. You'll be complaining next that Candace and Annabel wear their bikinis too small ;)


 


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