How many members of this forum are women?

[spirit4earth]

I'm still trying to figure out how on the one hand Kim Kardashian breaks the internet....with primarily women being interested in WTF she is doing is OK but a guy posts a picture of a woman and he is to be vilified. Why the double standard?
I'd like to see anyone posting in the thread use a bit more discretion as to what is appropriate but deleting it because of a few opinions/concerns seems a bit harsh. As to clickbait, tough to define something organically created by users as clickbait.

None of the men on here are being vilified.
 "To speak or write about in an abusively disparaging manner".  Maybe some of the women in the photographs have been vilified, though?

Anyway, if Admin won't step up, the thread's staying.  So be it.  It's disappointing, but this was never my fight.

[spirit4earth]

Enjoying this discussion and the comments.

I relayed to my wife the contents of this thread and the HCOSUP thread and my opinion, and her half joking response is, "So are you trying to say I'm fat?"

I don't think this is what you intended, but you kind of made my previous point about change only happening when things are made personal.  I don't know your wife, but I bet she wasn't joking, and she's probably not the only wife/girlfriend/daughter wondering the same thing.

[stoneaxe]

We don't "like women" unless we believe the same isn't vilification? Denying millions of years of evolution and thinking that we can regulate men lusting for women and vice versa is simply silly. Nothing anybody here can do or say that will change that, actually I guess there is an answer for that.... burkas.

I wonder how many people here would avert their eyes when somebody attractive walks by in a bikini or speedo instead of looking and thinking "Oh My My"?

[eastbound]

if any of our wives/daughters/female friends were photographed in a compromising position without their permission--while they were merely trying to learn to SUP--and if the pictures were posted on a site where they were then ridiculed, we'd understand "personal", and likely not be so happy with that site.

[all~wet]

There IS a price of admission to be paid in having people listen to and tolerate your views, opinions.... freedom of expression. It is having to tolerate the expression of others... yes even that which you disagree with, think inane, boring, offensive, immoral and illogical.

"It's always easy to get people to condemn threats to free speech when the speech being threatened is speech that they like. It's much more difficult to induce support for free speech rights when the speech being punished is speech they find repellent."
Glenn Greenwald

"You should protest about the views of people you disagree with over major moral issues, and argue them down, but you should not try to silence them, however repugnant you find them. That is the bitter pill free speech requires us to swallow."
Julian Baggini


"Free speech is meant to protect unpopular speech. Popular speech, by definition, needs no protection."
Neal Boortz


"One of the problems with defending free speech is you often have to defend people that you find to be outrageous and unpleasant and disgusting."
Salman Rushdie


"I always think the true test of free speech is when someone says something you don't like."
Bindi Irwin


And on and on.....

[stoneaxe]

Very, very few of the hundreds of posts there are ridicule....and I agree with you, I don't care for that. That's reason to delete it? To me it's simply reason to go elsewhere if it means enough to you. Good luck getting rid of all the images of barely clad people from your life and people ridiculing people though.

[eastbound]

would it be free speech for someone to post a picture of your daughter, taken without her permission, in a compromising position she finds herself in while learning a new sport? is it free speech for others to post ridicule of your daughter, as featured in said picture?

is that the kind of free speech youre speaking of?

it certainly isnt the kind referred to by those you have quoted.

[Area 10]

We don't "like women" unless we believe the same isn't vilification? Denying millions of years of evolution and thinking that we can regulate men lusting for women and vice versa is simply silly. Nothing anybody here can do or say that will change that, actually I guess there is an answer for that.... burkas.

I wonder how many people here would avert their eyes when somebody attractive walks by in a bikini or speedo instead of looking and thinking "Oh My My"?

This is the standard nonsense cop-out argument. Don't try to turn this into some grand philosophical debate. It's just a bunch of old men leering after young women, when other women are asking them not to. This is about politeness and consideration not free speech. No-one is trying to stop you from acting like a moron, they are just asking you to do it elsewhere. The entire internet is stuffed full of pictures of semi-naked women (and more). Why on earth does this little patch also have to be?

FFS try doing something kind and decent for once. What separates man from animals is that he can thoughtfully decide that while he has certain urges, he will decide out of consideration for others and the common good, not to act on them. It is the fact that he makes that effort to be better than his nature would otherwise dictate that makes him a man. Be a man.

[Quickbeam]

The argument about censorship is a red herring. There is censorship here. There was just recently a picture of a full frontal, nude woman posted on the hot chicks thread. It was removed by the Admin. That is censorship. Is anyone really going to argue that this picture should have stayed because it should not have been censored? It is the degree of censorship you’re arguing about. So really, I don’t think you can use the censorship argument unless you’re willing to say anything goes, and I would hope you wouldn’t think that.

To me, and to others, I just don’t think some of the pictures and comments belong in this type of venue. There is enough of this all over the web if you want it. If we really want women to participate shouldn’t we make this a more welcoming site for them to come to?

I really, really liked what Stoneaxe said in an earlier comment in this thread. He said

“And you're right. I'd like my granddaughter to see the zone as a great place to find women she can emulate rather than pictures that bring question to her value because she may not have a certain bodyshape.”

That to me says the kind of place I’d like the Zone to be.

[headmount]

I looked a few times at the thread when it first started and got bored.  One could be King Leer around here because we have plenty to see without looking online.  But like political topics in random, it's as simple as not clicking.  Don't you vote your displeasure by not viewing?  Making a big deal out of this only attracts more attention to it. 

[stoneaxe]

Ah yes the nonsense argument. Of course the opinions of others are nonsense, and only a real man knows the opinions of others are nonsense. I'm not trying to make this some grand philosophical issue. I'm simply saying that this place IS a product of its users. But you want it to be different...more what you want....talk about arrogance! If you feel this strongly about it I'm afraid it appears you'll be going elsewhere.

My value as a person doesn't start and stop on the zone. The question of my kindness and decency isn't yours to define, and certainly not my morals.

[pdxmike]

Maybe something like this would work--I lived with a family in a small town in Italy for awhile--husband put up his calendar in the kitchen, wife responded:

[Weasels wake]

This whole discussion reminds me of a similar discussion that happened here in the "Random" section not that long ago.
Some were complaining about the threads that were (and still are) dealing with politics.  Paraphrasing "this site is not a place for politics" or "I don't come there to discuss politics".

So here we go again, but this time it seems to be more serious, like Midol and Viagra being mixed together, yikes!

[PonoBill]

Given the comments from the Admin. this morning, it looks like the hot chicks thread is here to stay. To me this is a mistake and not very forward thinking, but then I’m not the Admin.

I said to someone else just this morning, and I’ll repeat it here. Sometimes I just don’t get Americans. And sorry to lump everyone into one category. I know I shouldn’t do that. But you know it wasn’t all that long ago that Janet Jackson had her famous “nipple slip” at the Super Bowl. There was this huge outcry in the States. To me it was like ‘who cares’. Just not a big deal. But now we have the hot chicks thread on the Zone, which to my way of thinking is a whole lot worse than Janet’s nipple, and people fight to defend it.

You know you shouldn't, and still you did. Makes for a strong argument. Are you really so unsophisticated that you don't understand a media storm vs. anyone actually giving a rats ass about Janet Jackson?

We're not really talking about Americans and their wacky version of morals anyway, we're talking about a forum on the internet. But good on you for making it all about that, when what it really is, is a difference of opinion.

[SeaMe]

The argument about censorship is a red herring. There is censorship here. There was just recently a picture of a full frontal, nude woman posted on the hot chicks thread. It was removed by the Admin. That is censorship. Is anyone really going to argue that this picture should have stayed because it should not have been censored? It is the degree of censorship you’re arguing about. So really, I don’t think you can use the censorship argument unless you’re willing to say anything goes, and I would hope you wouldn’t think that.

QB beat me to it, but…

I agree with Stoneaxe, what we don't need is censorship and ultra sensitivity (again I don't agree with the Cat Calls/inappropriate comments) but telling the Admin to take it down is not the way to go.

You mean like the censorship and ultra sensitivity that prompted Admin to remove "…THE least inspiring SUP mag in history" (title truncated to protect the victim) and "And then the pros showed up :-("? And no, those are not the only two threads removed in the time I've been here.

(For those that don't know, that last thread involved one of the premiere women of the sport. It was the first time she had commented on SUZ in about six years, but you won't find it now. I guess someone was offended by that thread...)

If you think that things don't get censored here on the Zone you're living in la-la land.

To me, and to others, I just don’t think some of the pictures and comments belong in this type of venue. There is enough of this all over the web if you want it.

+1. If you're on a public forum that is billed as "A global, online stand up paddling community with forums covering various aspects of the sport and industry," then no, you don't expect, or in some cases want, to see crotch shots, and grown men behaving like they're at a frat house circle jerk.

I really, really liked what Stoneaxe said in an earlier comment in this thread. He said

“And you're right. I'd like my granddaughter to see the zone as a great place to find women she can emulate rather than pictures that bring question to her value because she may not have a certain bodyshape.”

I'm beginning to wonder if he remembers typing that. 

Given the comments from the Admin. this morning, it looks like the hot chicks thread is here to stay. To me this is a mistake and not very forward thinking, but then I’m not the Admin.

Agreed. But then, the photos are quietly disappearing from the thread. Interesting…

Anyway, if Admin won't step up, the thread's staying.  So be it.  It's disappointing, but this was never my fight.

I'm not sure if others realize it 6 pages in, but I remember you are not the one who bought up the HC thread to begin with. SurfCowboy brought it up.

I looked a few times at the thread when it first started and got bored.  One could be King Leer around here because we have plenty to see without looking online.  But like political topics in random, it's as simple as not clicking.  Don't you vote your displeasure by not viewing?  Making a big deal out of this only attracts more attention to it.

The thread shows up in "recent posts" view, and the behavior leaks over into other threads, so no, it's not as easy as "not viewing" it. Unless what you're really saying is that those who object to the thread should not view the Zone?

Ah yes the nonsense argument. Of course the opinions of others are nonsense, and only a real man knows the opinions of others are nonsense. I'm not trying to make this some grand philosophical issue. I'm simply saying that this place IS a product of its users. But you want it to be different...more what you want....talk about arrogance! If you feel this strongly about it I'm afraid it appears you'll be going elsewhere.

It's not one person trying to make it more of what he wants; it's a portion of the active male membership and a huge portion of the active female membership asking for a change. But you've made yourself clear; others want it to be different than what you want, so they should go elsewhere.  Feel the aloha…     

My value as a person doesn't start and stop on the zone. The question of my kindness and decency isn't yours to define, and certainly not my morals.

You may not like hearing this, but for those of us not local or related to you, your posts here are exactly what define you, for better or for worse. It's the only frame of reference people who don't know you IRL have.