Author Topic: Laugh at Trump all you want  (Read 243267 times)

stoneaxe

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Re: Laugh at Trump all you want
« Reply #795 on: October 19, 2016, 10:21:16 AM »
The two biggest issues I have are immigration and TPP. Those two things are more likely to effect the lives of more Americans than any of other issues. Bernie says open borders are a right-wing way of depressing wages and is against TPP for much the same reason. He more closely aligns with Trump on those issues than he does Hillary and if Bernie was the candidate I'd be voting democrat. At least with Bernie I feel I can believe what he's saying. I can't do that with either of these two.

If the press was actually doing it's job instead of trying to get Hillary elected things would be far different (for starters she wouldn't have won the primary). Take a look at the front page on CNN. Do you see anything negative about Hillary there...any mention of the corruption clearly shown in the wikileaks other than the lowlife Rubio angling for 2020....I'll answer my own question....no, all you see is attack after attack on Trump.

I just had a lunchtime conversation with a young engineer in my company. Very bright young guy, a Hillary supporter, he says she the best for the job. Why?...he's up to speed on what a dirtbag Trump is but hasn't heard shit about the wikilieaks or other dirt exposing her corruption. He gets his news mostly from the Boston Globe and CNN. As I said, he's a smart guy but somehow doesn't understand just how ignorant he is. Just like so many others that spend more time worrying about what the Kardashians are doing or whatever than they do educating themselves on the issues. Hillary is banking on biased media and the ignorance of the average American that she has come to hate to get elected.

Most importantly, it is not possible that either of these candidates can help in restoring trust in our our institutions as they are both terrible role models, are individually dishonest, and offer no moral or ethical example to lead by.
Truth
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 10:33:14 AM by stoneaxe »
Bob

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Area 10

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Re: Laugh at Trump all you want
« Reply #796 on: October 19, 2016, 10:48:23 AM »
I wonder if you'll get the same voting phenomenon as we do here in the UK. People here are reluctant to say they are voting right-wing, but still do. So the pollsters consistently underestimate the size of the true right-wing vote. I can imagine a similar thing happening with Trump, and although the polls seem to firmly favour Clinton right now, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a shock result come the actual voting.

tautologies

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Re: Laugh at Trump all you want
« Reply #797 on: October 19, 2016, 10:59:13 AM »

Watching Donald these past few months, i think it is fair to say that he consistently monitors public opinion and unabashedly changes his position to match whatever he feels to be the winning opinion and sometimes just based on whim.  I don't feel comfortable gauging what his actual opinions might be or if they are even truly formed.  I trust history a bit more and his behaviors in business might be the best indicator of his future actions in that realm.

Also, Donald is well aware that he is courting (in part) the blow it up vote and that incendiary statements help his cause with that group.

I agree with you about Hillary.  We know what we will get and it will not be change.

Well if his business practices are the indicator we'll all be in for a wild ride if he is elected. I would say we should go with what he is saying and doing so that includes jailing journalists and political opponents, it includes bombing the hell out of countries and the families of the people he does not like. It means truth and realities hava absolutely no place in public discourse.


You are normalizing a person that has no experience or knowledge about the political system and process and no boundaries in terms of how he deals with people. He suggested to renegotiate the US debt....I mean how dumb can you be. He suggested that the US should not follow through with NATO. I mean there are literally hundres of statements like this.

He creates uncertainty at every turn, which in turn makes the world a less safe environment....which again hinders progress.

Personally, I do not think he would sit for very long if he was elected because of his past, which means that Pence...and ultra religious right wing bigot would take over...

The fact that all these things did not come up during the primaries shows what a poor vetting job the GOP has done.

surf4food

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Re: Laugh at Trump all you want
« Reply #798 on: October 19, 2016, 11:03:07 AM »
I wonder if you'll get the same voting phenomenon as we do here in the UK. People here are reluctant to say they are voting right-wing, but still do. So the pollsters consistently underestimate the size of the true right-wing vote. I can imagine a similar thing happening with Trump, and although the polls seem to firmly favour Clinton right now, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a shock result come the actual voting.

People here who normally vote right-wing here (the U.S.) are very up front and boastful about it.  Ofcourse so do people who normally vote left-wing.  The interesting thing with Trump is, some of the people who will be voting for him (reluctantly) are people who normally vote Democrat.  Even Hillary has some people who normally vote Republican who will be voting for her (also reluctantly).  Crazy world. 
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 11:08:33 AM by surf4food »

headmount

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Re: Laugh at Trump all you want
« Reply #799 on: October 19, 2016, 11:09:49 AM »

Watching Donald these past few months, i think it is fair to say that he consistently monitors public opinion and unabashedly changes his position to match whatever he feels to be the winning opinion and sometimes just based on whim.  I don't feel comfortable gauging what his actual opinions might be or if they are even truly formed.  I trust history a bit more and his behaviors in business might be the best indicator of his future actions in that realm.

Also, Donald is well aware that he is courting (in part) the blow it up vote and that incendiary statements help his cause with that group.

I agree with you about Hillary.  We know what we will get and it will not be change.

Well if his business practices are the indicator we'll all be in for a wild ride if he is elected. I would say we should go with what he is saying and doing so that includes jailing journalists and political opponents, it includes bombing the hell out of countries and the families of the people he does not like. It means truth and realities hava absolutely no place in public discourse.


You are normalizing a person that has no experience or knowledge about the political system and process and no boundaries in terms of how he deals with people. He suggested to renegotiate the US debt....I mean how dumb can you be. He suggested that the US should not follow through with NATO. I mean there are literally hundres of statements like this.

He creates uncertainty at every turn, which in turn makes the world a less safe environment....which again hinders progress.

Personally, I do not think he would sit for very long if he was elected because of his past, which means that Pence...and ultra religious right wing bigot would take over...

The fact that all these things did not come up during the primaries shows what a poor vetting job the GOP has done.
This last sentence is the crux of the matter.  After McCain somehow torpedoed himself by taking Palin onboard and then Romney speaking off mic, you'd think the GOP would be extra careful with the 2016 nominee.  Now those guys seem like great picks compared to the current one.  The GOP seems intent on shooting themselves in the foot.  Anyone but DT could beat HC.  Even Christie but especially Kasich.

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Re: Laugh at Trump all you want
« Reply #800 on: October 19, 2016, 11:15:56 AM »
Wait. this is not an issue of vetting.  It is not as though the GOP courted Trump but failed to look into him.  They didn't choose him or want him and they still don't (that fact is part of why they got him).

Taut, I am in no way normalizing Trump.  Please don't mistake disliking two candidates to be the same as liking one.  Possibly we differ in that I like Hillary less than you do, not that I like Trump more.

stoneaxe

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Re: Laugh at Trump all you want
« Reply #801 on: October 19, 2016, 12:11:25 PM »
I wonder if you'll get the same voting phenomenon as we do here in the UK. People here are reluctant to say they are voting right-wing, but still do. So the pollsters consistently underestimate the size of the true right-wing vote. I can imagine a similar thing happening with Trump, and although the polls seem to firmly favour Clinton right now, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a shock result come the actual voting.

The odds makers over there are saying it looks very similar to the Brexit vote. More money on Clinton, more bets on Donald. Didn't the last poll for Brexit show an 11% differential in favor of staying in the EU? Current polls vary from tied to 9% in Hillary's favor. What is different from brexit is that it's not a national referendum....she still has an easier path to 270 electoral college votes. She may very well lose the popular vote and still win the election.

It's not the hard core right wing that is hiding it's Donald vote...it's the independents with a lot of liberal friends. I also won't be surprised to see far more blacks voting for Trump than most might think. I think the fact that illegal immigration hurts them most is sinking in for many.

Trumps comments on debt are kind of whacko but at least he is trying to think of ways to reduce it and not just let it continue to balloon. As for NATO....he simply wants other nations to pay a reasonable share, that things have changed dramatically since it was setup, the US is not as rich compared to when it was established....there are 28 nations in NATO yet the US provides over 22% of it's funding....exactly what is so crazy about wanting to change that a bit? Admin points out correctly that it's the debt and it won't be easy to change but given the bloat that exists in our government I'd bet there are lots of places to cut small percentages.

Let's play change the sentence...what the hell one is just as good as the other.
"Personally, I do not think he would sit for very long if he was elected because of his past, which means that Pence...and ultra religious right wing bigot would take over... "
to
"Personally, I do not think she would sit for very long if she was elected because of her past, which means that Kaine...and ultra religious left wing socialist would take over...

The only problem with that change is that the press will hound Trump on every comment and decision in his Presidency but they will give Hillary a pass on almost anything.

One thing is for sure, I'll be happy when this is done and over with. Getting tired of arguing with friends over politicians that in truth couldn't really give a shit about our concerns.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 12:38:40 PM by stoneaxe »
Bob

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tautologies

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Re: Laugh at Trump all you want
« Reply #802 on: October 19, 2016, 02:01:27 PM »
This last sentence is the crux of the matter.  After McCain somehow torpedoed himself by taking Palin onboard and then Romney speaking off mic, you'd think the GOP would be extra careful with the 2016 nominee.  Now those guys seem like great picks compared to the current one.  The GOP seems intent on shooting themselves in the foot.  Anyone but DT could beat HC.  Even Christie but especially Kasich.

Personaly I think Christie is too dumb to survive..and his temper would eventually have done him in. Bush was killed by his brother (seemed much more pragmatic than GW). Kasich surfed on a "don't stick your head up" wave, but he seemed normal because of the lack of scrutiny. Of the last few he did seem to be the normal one.

I think GOP suffers because of the way they have engaged their electorate. They found two (rather large) segments of disenfranchised potential voters...that didn't use to vote. The religious right wing, and a segment where scientific authority...any authority for that matter is bad. Having a political party that on the surface looks to be rooting for its own demise is truly weird.

I mean with the last congress being obstructionist, and GOP / McCain now going out and promising more of that I am really worried. Since politics, to me, is about balancing ideology / dogma and pragmatism.

I guess most large and successful powers through history in some ways has done themselves in by having the populous be disenfranchised. But that no one took the time to dig in and ask people that Trump has worked with before: "Hey...this guy Trump. What is he like?". 

Anyway...yikes...rant over.

tautologies

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Re: Laugh at Trump all you want
« Reply #803 on: October 19, 2016, 03:25:13 PM »
Wait. this is not an issue of vetting.  It is not as though the GOP courted Trump but failed to look into him.  They didn't choose him or want him and they still don't (that fact is part of why they got him).

Taut, I am in no way normalizing Trump.  Please don't mistake disliking two candidates to be the same as liking one.  Possibly we differ in that I like Hillary less than you do, not that I like Trump more.


Well Clinton is probably the most vetted candidate to ever go up for election. I am not a huge Clinton fan, but Clinton and Trump are categorically different, and cannot even be compared.

I think you are wrong. If they had early on done a deep dive into his background then he would not have been elected. Imagine if one of the many man tapes of him being a sexual predator had come out in the primaries? They were there, and surely more than enough signs of it was out there.

I think that would have changed the media's curiosity on him and the tone of what he was saying would have changed.
I do think the GOP did not know how to deal with Trump.

Personally, I think Trump has a mental issue (narcissistic personality disorder) which makes him incredibly unsuited to be in office. Obviously, this is not a diagnosis...and Clinton / Obama...pretty much anyone in office are narcissists, but not to the level the Trump is.

 

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Re: Laugh at Trump all you want
« Reply #804 on: October 20, 2016, 02:59:28 AM »
I think you are wrong. If they had early on done a deep dive into his background then he would not have been elected.

Who is they?  The Republican establishment?  They were strongly anti-Trump right up until the point where they had no choice.  Remember them trying to conjure ways to replace him even if meant disregarding the vote?  Vetting occurs when you are deciding if your prospective choice has what it takes, not the guy you are already working against. The RNC?  Look at the hot water the DNC got in for covertly picking favorites (Wikileaks/Wasserman Shultz firing, etc). 

If your point is that some Republican entity should have found this leaked tape or similar and used it earlier...there certainly were groups that would have if they had it.  They didn't. 

The DNC on the other hand force fed us Hillary and took great efforts to block the only solid candidate brave enough to oppose her.  Vetting?  What other candidate would have been run with her baggage/unfovorables?  If we win with Hillary we will have truly dodged the bullet, but only by the extraordinary weakness of the other guy, not by our strength....and, the day after we will have won...Hillary. 
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 03:02:53 AM by Admin »

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Re: Laugh at Trump all you want
« Reply #805 on: October 20, 2016, 03:21:07 AM »
The two biggest issues I have are immigration and TPP.

My biggest is that we use our prosperity to do good in the world rather than squander our wealth on fruitless destruction and projected misery. 
Follow that with a balanced budget and debt reduction.

lucabrasi

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Re: Laugh at Trump all you want
« Reply #806 on: October 20, 2016, 06:05:05 AM »
....she still has an easier path to 270 electoral college votes. She may very well lose the popular vote and still win the election.
Gee, you think this has a chance to make things interesting? I was starting to wonder what would happen if this were to happen.....either side.

PonoBill

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Re: Laugh at Trump all you want
« Reply #807 on: October 20, 2016, 06:19:08 AM »
The two biggest issues I have are immigration and TPP.

My biggest is that we use our prosperity to do good in the world rather than squander our wealth on fruitless destruction and projected misery. 
Follow that with a balanced budget and debt reduction.

Hmmm.
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starman

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Re: Laugh at Trump all you want
« Reply #808 on: October 20, 2016, 11:09:53 AM »

tautologies

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Re: Laugh at Trump all you want
« Reply #809 on: October 20, 2016, 11:10:51 AM »

Who is they?  The Republican establishment?  They were strongly anti-Trump right up until the point where they had no choice.  Remember them trying to conjure ways to replace him even if meant disregarding the vote?  Vetting occurs when you are deciding if your prospective choice has what it takes, not the guy you are already working against. The RNC?  Look at the hot water the DNC got in for covertly picking favorites (Wikileaks/Wasserman Shultz firing, etc). 

If your point is that some Republican entity should have found this leaked tape or similar and used it earlier...there certainly were groups that would have if they had it.  They didn't. 

The DNC on the other hand force fed us Hillary and took great efforts to block the only solid candidate brave enough to oppose her.  Vetting?  What other candidate would have been run with her baggage/unfovorables?  If we win with Hillary we will have truly dodged the bullet, but only by the extraordinary weakness of the other guy, not by our strength....and, the day after we will have won...Hillary.

But GOP clearly had no idea how to handle him. All the stories surfacing now should have been easy to discover, and it has to be the duty of the party to vet and publish information about candidates...the alternative candidates did not know how to deal with Trumps bullying and they did not take him seriously.

I get that the tapes are catalysts for making all these women come forward, but I am willing to bet that of the 9 women that so far has surfaced to tell their story, is just the top of the iceberg. I do think it is a party's duty to vet a candidate that they put forward. Remember this open process of nomination is a fairly recent development and that the parties themselves used to nominate. That is btw, the reason why the DNC has super delegates...to avoid crazies.

Before you admonish the DNC...I think it is better to put that criticism on the low level of information that the voters has. DNC did not change a thing before the election, and complaints comes as a result of an uninformed electorate, and their juvenile disagreement with the results. I do not disagree that they should update the super delegate process, but you cannot do that after a vote simply because you do not like the results. It has to be part of a bigger restructuring. Remember that Sanders lost on all accounts, with a larger margin than Clinton lost to Obama.

The biggest issue I have with the super delegate systems isn't even that the party could heavily influence the results, it is that someone else could....from outside of the party they could effectively steal a nomination.

When you look at it now, I bet the GOP regret not having a superdelegate system, though I gotta say I like their mandating system of delegates better.

Now it might seem that I am a big Clinton fan. I am not. As much as I would love to have a woman president, and as much as I think her performance yesterday was stellar, I have never been a huge fan, but I hate that GOP has given the party away to religious zealots and obstructionist and rigid teaparty people. Imagine the GOP having a candidate with the temperament and courage of Merkel with a strong ideological and scientifically based foundation yet pragmatic approach to politics? That would be a good balance of the scales to the DNC. I mean it could be making the political system work. The potential is there.

     
/rant over


 


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