Author Topic: 2016 SIC FX 12'6 X 26 VS Starboard All Star 12'6 X 25 Shootout  (Read 40451 times)

Rideordie

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Re: 2016 SIC FX 12'6 X 26 VS Starboard All Star 12'6 X 25 Shootout
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2016, 10:23:51 AM »
In Mark's interviews he says the 12 6 is 25 and 5/8ths.  My bet is that is what the board will be even though the catalog says 25.5 wide.   We shall see. 
2021 SIC RS 14 x 24.5
Naish Glide 14 (v2)
SIC X-14 SCC  
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KeNalu Mana 90 100 Flex

SUPflorida

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Re: 2016 SIC FX 12'6 X 26 VS Starboard All Star 12'6 X 25 Shootout
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2016, 11:17:18 AM »
In more general terms let's take a look at this flex thing ( forget the Allstar for a moment) Fiberglass laminates....in boat building...a lot a material goes into a hull to make it stiff enough...many times more material than is necessary to achieve appropriate panel strength. That's one of the main reasons for carbon...get the strength & stiffness without extra weight, compounded by doing sandwich construction to move the laminate layers farther apart. You are only going to get so much stiffness out a board for a given weight with conventional materials.

I put this question to the proponents of flex...what about cyclic loading?
How much faster is the fiber and/or resin going to breakdown if the board is noticeably flexing every stroke? That can't be ignored...especially if someone is forking over 3.5K and doesn't trade out every year or two? Is it plane old e-glass? Is it polypropylene (or some other fabric and resin that can hold up better to that kind of punishment)?

Yugi.....Kite boards? We are going to have to hunt pretty hard to find common ground with kite boards...it's going five times as fast, in full planing mode at all times, and is less than 1/3 the length and 1/2 the width...typical kite board probably couldn't float much more than a compact version of mans best friend.. Build a 14' kiteboarding 26" wide, limit its top speed to 8-10 mph and get back to me 😎 on that one.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 11:52:20 AM by SUPflorida »

Chilly

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Re: 2016 SIC FX 12'6 X 26 VS Starboard All Star 12'6 X 25 Shootout
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2016, 12:13:11 PM »
In more general terms let's take a look at this flex thing ( forget the Allstar for a moment) Fiberglass laminates....in boat building...a lot a material goes into a hull to make it stiff enough...many times more material than is necessary to achieve appropriate panel strength. That's one of the main reasons for carbon...get the strength & stiffness without extra weight, compounded by doing sandwich construction to move the laminate layers farther apart. You are only going to get so much stiffness out a board for a given weight with conventional materials.

I put this question to the proponents of flex...what about cyclic loading?
How much faster is the fiber and/or resin going to breakdown if the board is noticeably flexing every stroke? That can't be ignored...especially if someone is forking over 3.5K and doesn't trade out every year or two? Is it plane old e-glass? Is it polypropylene (or some other fabric and resin that can hold up better to that kind of punishment)?

Yugi.....Kite boards? We are going to have to hunt pretty hard to find common ground with kite boards...it's going five times as fast, in full planing mode at all times, and is less than 1/3 the length and 1/2 the width...typical kite board probably couldn't float much more than a compact version of mans best friend.. Build a 14' kiteboarding 26" wide, limit its top speed to 8-10 mph and get back to me 😎 on that one.

I’m not sure if this is related to your question. A bow as in archery, specifically traditional bows uses a piece of wood sandwiched between two pieces of fiberglass. It is flexed way more than any board will ever be and it holds up very well. I have a traditional long bow that’s over 25 years old and has been shot thousands of time, still looks and shoots great. It’s clear glass over bamboo.
Also the argument can be made that when there’s no flex, something's tend to snap or crack instead of absorbing the stress.

NSP 2016 12'6 Surf Race Pro

SUPflorida

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Re: 2016 SIC FX 12'6 X 26 VS Starboard All Star 12'6 X 25 Shootout
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2016, 12:27:15 PM »
Chilly...lets see if we can get someone who keeps records of their strokes/distance per stroke to give us some data so we can put a number to this.... Find out how many up/down flex cycles say a five mile session produces...how many miles in a year...and assign some real viable numbers in place ...

yugi

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Re: 2016 SIC FX 12'6 X 26 VS Starboard All Star 12'6 X 25 Shootout
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2016, 12:55:48 PM »
Personally we like no flex on flat -> and some flex in bumps.  The flex adds a more forgiving feel when it gets steep and deep -> whereas no flex gives a more instant response to paddle input.  Both have their pros and cons.

Very similar to ski and SB reverse camber - relating to race vs recreational.  …

Even with lightweight riders - some boards do flex nicely.

1   Bullet 17.4 I’m driving. Good time to talk?  demo - yes front flexes in waves
2   Bullet 14V2 SCC - no noticeable flex and feels quite stiff
3   JL M-14 SIB - yes front flexes in waves
4   SB Touring Carbon - zero flex very stiff
5   Dominator Pro-Elite - yes center flexes quite easy

For DB planing we prefer no flex - for more instant power.
For DW planing we prefer some flex - for more forgiveness.
SB seems to be promoting a center flex rebound concept.


Hmmmmmm…

TN_SUP

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Re: 2016 SIC FX 12'6 X 26 VS Starboard All Star 12'6 X 25 Shootout
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2016, 01:08:24 PM »
Looks like Standup Outfitters has a 14' FX available to demo, I bought my pro lite from them, I will ask them about it.....first if it's true.
'13 SB Sprint, '15 SIC X-14 ProLite, RH Coastal Cruiser, Think EZE Ski, Kenalu Konihi 84  & Mana

yugi

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Re: 2016 SIC FX 12'6 X 26 VS Starboard All Star 12'6 X 25 Shootout
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2016, 01:10:27 PM »
...

Yugi.....Kite boards? We are going to have to hunt pretty hard to find common ground with kite boards...it's going five times as fast, in full planing mode at all times, and is less than 1/3 the length and 1/2 the width...typical kite board probably couldn't float much more than a compact version of mans best friend.. Build a 14' kiteboarding 26" wide, limit its top speed to 8-10 mph and get back to me 😎 on that one.

I said I bet the reviewers are kiteboarders. Wanna bet?

If I lose I promise to think about all your strawman arguments. If I win you might want to have a think about how I guessed they were.

Area 10

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Re: 2016 SIC FX 12'6 X 26 VS Starboard All Star 12'6 X 25 Shootout
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2016, 01:24:54 PM »
Play nicely now boys, please haha! We are all swimming in the same sea of unknowingness, but the various arguments on all sides are proving thought-provoking, and we'll probably reach a consensus eventually, having amused ourselves along the way.

Starboard yet again have managed to create a lot of column inches, whatever the merits or otherwise of their claims. They certainly have a gift for it. I'd like to see the board's shaper explain this flex theory, and how it is instantiated in the construction, in the same way that Mark Raaphorst takes the time to appear in videos introducing his shapes. But maybe SB have actually done this somewhere and I've just missed it.

Rideordie

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Re: 2016 SIC FX 12'6 X 26 VS Starboard All Star 12'6 X 25 Shootout
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2016, 01:54:26 PM »
TN SUP,
If you test the FX 14 PLEASE flip it over and check the width and volume numbers before submitting your review.  The seemingly last minute change up on production specs has resulted in demo boards that don't match the production width and volume, which has created some significant confusion.  Also appears to have delayed container delivery.  I scour the internet almost daily looking for SIC FX reviews and I have not yet seen one verified on a production model in 14 or 12 6 length.  My (large) SIC dealer is telling me that the SIC container delivery is scheduled to arrive at his shop during the first or second week of March and I am to receive the first (14) that he ships out. 

By the way, if anyone is interested, there is a 2016 14 x 25 Carbon Allstar for sale on Distressed Mullet for $2,250.  That is a smoking deal!!  Condition 9/10.  Reason for selling: Owner is going down to 23 inches on width.  Board is located in Hilton Head, SC.  Close to me and very tempting, but I am waiting for the FX.           

http://distressedmullet.com/classifieds/standup-paddle-board/starboard-2016-carbon-allstar-14x25/
         
2021 SIC RS 14 x 24.5
Naish Glide 14 (v2)
SIC X-14 SCC  
KeNalu Konihi 95 xTuf(s)
KeNalu Mana 90 100 Flex

Area 10

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Re: 2016 SIC FX 12'6 X 26 VS Starboard All Star 12'6 X 25 Shootout
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2016, 03:09:54 PM »
How much do you think we can believe "reasons for sale" in adverts? I guess I have always reckoned that the day I see reasons such as "the board is dog slow", "too tippy for me", and "I stole it" then I'd start paying attention. But so far I've only seen things like "I'm getting the narrower version", "lack of space forces sale" etc. But maybe I'm being too cynical.

SUPflorida

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Re: 2016 SIC FX 12'6 X 26 VS Starboard All Star 12'6 X 25 Shootout
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2016, 04:47:22 PM »
Yugi...I won't take that bet....that's almost a sure thing...in your favor 😏 But I'll carefully consider your position anyway🤔..."as iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another".  I was hoping the smiley face at the end conveyed that this was a exchange of ideas and in no way, shape, or form an argument 🤗

I still hoping someone steps up with some data concerning distance per stroke for the average paddling enthusiast. I'll have to dig around a bit I think some of that was covered in one of the paddling stroke examinations videos on you tube.

Eagle

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Re: 2016 SIC FX 12'6 X 26 VS Starboard All Star 12'6 X 25 Shootout
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2016, 05:19:47 PM »
What is interesting is that SB is pushing the flex concept across all their race board marketing - not just the Allstar.
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

SUPflorida

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Re: 2016 SIC FX 12'6 X 26 VS Starboard All Star 12'6 X 25 Shootout
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2016, 05:58:01 PM »
Looking at their diagram...I ask again how in the world is bouncing up and down  enhancing forward motion? Inquiring minds want to know....

In light air sailboat racing, and it's been said of SUP racing as well....one speed technique is keeping the boat/board as calm going through the water as possible, that any jerky motion costs you speed...this flex bounce flys straight into the face of that.

yugi

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Re: 2016 SIC FX 12'6 X 26 VS Starboard All Star 12'6 X 25 Shootout
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2016, 06:45:19 PM »
As a kiteboarder I can totally understand how board flex can work in your favor in traveling over rougher waters. I don't need to try work it out, I just know that it "can" so it opens my mind to be ready to think it might be OK. I was never so dead set against board flex, especially the 2014 Naish Javelin LE as others were. I've paddled one a lot and, in the past, have discussed this with pro-stiffnes paddlers and voiced the opinion it may not be slowing the board down when padding upwind in chop.

As a dinghy racer I also know how pumping and oching can be used, especially when  properly timed with the waves,  to generate more speed. I'm pretty sure my dinghy racing background, especially this aspect of it, has given me a good edge on others in downwind. (oops, my secret is out)

https://youtu.be/hEQttj8E1b0

I didn't know Starboard was hyping this flex as engineered. My reaction to that is the same as Florida's. Sorry, Florida, I wasn't aware of that hype. Gut reaction is they are just trying to call the flex they have in the light boards "not so bad". Once they start to claim they are engineering this into the board design as "storing" energy I'd also want to see some data behind it. Hard to do though.

Florida, I had understood it's an exchange of ideas. No worries.



« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 07:12:57 PM by yugi »

pdxmike

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Re: 2016 SIC FX 12'6 X 26 VS Starboard All Star 12'6 X 25 Shootout
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2016, 08:24:20 PM »
Looking at their diagram...I ask again how in the world is bouncing up and down  enhancing forward motion? Inquiring minds want to know....
That diagram looks dubious.  If the "pressure" being "stored" is downward on the downstroke, then the pressure being "released" on the upstroke should be upward, not partly forward as the little arrows optimistically show.  In other words, you're just bouncing down and up, not down and forward.  It looks like a marketing gimmick similar to what you'd see in a 1970s running shoe ad. 

I'm not saying there may not be advantages to having flex in boards in rough water or whatever, I'm just having trouble buying into the concept shown in the diagram of the energy being released propelling you forward.  And the board undoubtedly IS shooting forward on the "upstroke", but that's because the upstroke is coinciding with the power phase of the pull and the reduction in drag from the bottom of the board rising back up to flat.   

It reminds me of acceleration diagrams in swimming, since with a flexible board, you're changing the shape of the vessel just as your body position changes in the water during each stroke cycle.  But with swimming, a lot of the advances in speed have come from realizing the importance of not slowing down by creating drag.  The fastest swimmer is the one who slows down least after applying the power.  Seeing that diagram with the middle of the board dropping just looks like the flex is creating a big brake every stroke, like a breaststroker dropping his knees and killing his glide before every kick.

 


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