Author Topic: 2016 Starboard Allstar 14 x 25  (Read 52706 times)

Eagle

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Re: 2016 Starboard Allstar 14 x 25
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2016, 07:32:00 AM »
Yes - out of the whole test - stroke effectiveness also stood out for me right away.  That type of data might have some real valid on-the-water use that is quantifiable and specific to the individual.
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ukgm

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Re: 2016 Starboard Allstar 14 x 25
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2016, 07:35:05 AM »
As a reformed marketer--well, at least I'm no longer being PAID to lie about other people's products--I'd say that vanishingly few people look at the methodology or personal relevance of a test. They just drop to the bottom line. 2016 is 6 percent faster than 2015. Sold. They won't even look at "6 to 3 percent" faster. Just 6.

I think the most valuable element of Larry's effort is the idea of Stroke Effectiveness. Pulling all this kind of stuff together might yeild some information that is useful for testing and optimizing current designs. Certainly better than the long history of windsurfer tests: "George and Mary liked the BumpJumper best, but Wally hated the color."

The first thing I always look at is methodology and most of the comments I put with my stats to him on his FB page relate to that. As to the findings, I know full well I'm just going to have to source a 2016 Allstar to test to see how it works with me (I have got a 2014 I can compare it to) but Larry's data does give you something to think about.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 07:41:13 AM by ukgm »

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Re: 2016 Starboard Allstar 14 x 25
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2016, 07:42:39 AM »
Yes - out of the whole test - stroke effectiveness also stood out for me right away.  That type of data might have some real valid on-the-water use that is quantifiable and specific to the individual.

That was a good nugget for me as I'd ran into problems in my own tests with being dictated by stroke length knowing that it would change at very high velocities but wasn't sure what to do about it. I'm going to rework my last tests it see what it does and then credit Larry accordingly for it in my next article.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 07:44:36 AM by ukgm »

Eagle

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Re: 2016 Starboard Allstar 14 x 25
« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2016, 08:06:31 AM »
Yeah basically I go through something like that - and get to the nub.  The other stuff is a lot of fluff and puff.  Thoughts were -> but that was only for you.  What about me paddling it? 

Does he get any comp if people buy boards and stuff because of what he writes in his blog?  That may be a consideration.  How many people would buy a 2016 if his results showed the 2015 was faster?  That would go over well with his masters.

It is pretty clear to me how bias and other bs can easily creep into the equations.  So am skeptical of reviews and tests - since they may be for marketing or click bait or some other purpose.

Best are reviews and tests by people that have no vested interest in the result outcome with many subjects.  Like double blind clinical trials independently funded and repeated by others -> to validate the findings.  Printed and published and verifiable by you if you did the same test with the same parameters and protocols.  Now just apply that to SUP testing in some way.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 08:08:07 AM by Eagle »
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PonoBill

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Re: 2016 Starboard Allstar 14 x 25
« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2016, 08:30:28 AM »
Stroke length changes slowly with cadence, but the degree of change is affected by the paddler. Higher cadence should result in higher speed, which somewhat offsets the cadence change. The difference between paddlers could be used as a measure of paddle efficiency since the increased drag from higher speed is the same for both paddlers (assuming similar weight). Variation in Stroke Effectiveness corellating to overall performance is probably due to efficiency.

That circles back to the "slower is faster" idea that paddle efficiency might be more important than cadence given the small amout of power we have to work with.

This kind of analysis might lead to a more consistently applicable optimal stroke as well as better hull testing.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 08:35:24 AM by PonoBill »
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Eagle

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Re: 2016 Starboard Allstar 14 x 25
« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2016, 08:58:09 AM »
Seems that paddle blade size - shaft flex - and shaft length etc can also play into the equation.

As the SE at the start vs the end of your session may be quite different as well.  So many variables and parameters are at play - and they constantly change on-the-water.  Interesting though - and can maybe have some specific application value.
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Area 10

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Re: 2016 Starboard Allstar 14 x 25
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2016, 09:26:05 AM »
By now, you KNOW that I am not an employee of Starboard, but nice poke. Keep in mind, AREA10, that if I were an employee, I would be a fool for posting my first post above.

photo - If you get paid or compensated by SB in some way - why not just say this in your sig - like ukgm and others do?  Maybe something like -

"Photographer paid by Starboard"
Yes.
photofr - "I am not an employee of Starboard".
Well, maybe this is a language problem, since English is not your primary language. So here's the definition of the word "employee":

employee
ɛmplɔɪˈiː,ɛmˈplɔɪiː,ɪm-
noun
a person employed for wages or salary, especially at non-executive level.
synonyms: worker, member of staff, member of the workforce; blue-collar worker, white-collar worker, workman, labourer, artisan, hand, hired hand, hired man, hired person, hired help, hireling; wage-earner, breadwinner; personnel, staff, workforce
"the firm supports employees who show ambition"


As I understand it you take pictures which Starboard pays you for. Therefore you are indeed the "hired help". And are an employee of Starboard.

I can't see why you would want to try to maintain the illusion that you are an unbiased obersever. Why not just accept that you aren't, and be open and honest about it? It does not mean that we will disbelieve everything you say, just as we wouldn't believe everything that someone who isn't connected to Starboard would say. But it is hard to believe someone who does not declare a potential conflict of interest - indeed, who tries to deny it when it is plainly there. So it is in your own interests to be clear and open about your relationship with Starboard. Eagle's suggestion of putting "Photographer paid by Starboard" in your signature seems like an honest and sensible way forward. Other contributors to this forum whose conflicts of interest have also been recently pointed out have done likewise, and that has been much appreciated by the forum members.




Eagle

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Re: 2016 Starboard Allstar 14 x 25
« Reply #52 on: June 30, 2016, 09:36:41 AM »
What A10 says does make sense photo.  Just do that so all can see when you make statements about your boards - everyone knows they are coming from someone who is compensated by the brand.

It is much better to be transparent about that.  Otherwise someone might think you are a shill.  Not that you are - just sayin.
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photofr

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Re: 2016 Starboard Allstar 14 x 25
« Reply #53 on: June 30, 2016, 02:24:35 PM »
By now, you KNOW that I am not an employee of Starboard, but nice poke. Keep in mind, AREA10, that if I were an employee, I would be a fool for posting my first post above.

photo - If you get paid or compensated by SB in some way - why not just say this in your sig - like ukgm and others do?  Maybe something like -

"Photographer paid by Starboard"

When a company pays me or sponsors me to ride their boards, I will make it clear. When I have to pay 100% retail value for my boards that I test, share, and compare to you guys, I won't. It's a matter of principles, and we all have our own views on that.

When I share something, it's because I feel it is of some value to the reader first and foremost. But to each its own.
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photofr

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Re: 2016 Starboard Allstar 14 x 25
« Reply #54 on: June 30, 2016, 02:33:08 PM »
Yeah basically I go through something like that - and get to the nub.  The other stuff is a lot of fluff and puff.  Thoughts were -> but that was only for you.  What about me paddling it? 

Does he get any comp if people buy boards and stuff because of what he writes in his blog?  That may be a consideration.  How many people would buy a 2016 if his results showed the 2015 was faster?  That would go over well with his masters.

It is pretty clear to me how bias and other bs can easily creep into the equations.  So am skeptical of reviews and tests - since they may be for marketing or click bait or some other purpose.

Best are reviews and tests by people that have no vested interest in the result outcome with many subjects.  Like double blind clinical trials independently funded and repeated by others -> to validate the findings.  Printed and published and verifiable by you if you did the same test with the same parameters and protocols.  Now just apply that to SUP testing in some way.

One of the factors to also consider is:
Think about how bad a reviewer would look in the eyes of the public for sharing false information.

Say Larry lies and says:
The 2016 is faster.
12 people go out and all find that the 2015 is in fact faster.
Larry would look like a fool, and his good (great) name would go down, fast.
I think I can speak for Larry, and many other people who spend a lot of time reviewing equipment:
Sponsored or not, people are not going to lie. There's just too much at stake!

The worst, and I mean the worst case scenario:
Results may be omitted, but what will remain "visible" has got to be the truth, for anything other than the truth wouldn't be worth any amount of money potentially paid by a given "sponsor".

Perhaps we should think about that.
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Eagle

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Re: 2016 Starboard Allstar 14 x 25
« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2016, 03:48:37 PM »
All Larry said was that 25 was faster for him.  That's what I got out of it.  But review aside - that's not important to us - paddling is - so that's what I did.  Reviews I just glance at when given from someone supported by a brand.

Took out the 23 again - and this time felt much better.  Wind was 7 kts with gusts maybe to about 10.  Went up 2 miles then turned DB on my normal up down.

Wave tops were cresting here and there - and again the 23 went upwind no problem.  The shape of the bow somehow works excellent - as is like a cross between my Dominator and Touring pintail.  I am really impressed - and it is fast as well - with very low drag.  Glide distance seems really exceptional.

DB the board comes alive and catches every single bump.  No kidding.  And is the only board I have tried that easily catches up to the waves ahead.  Easily -> it glides that well.  No bs - in only 7 kts - crazy.  Is completely fine and balanced in surf stance - and surprisingly not tippy.  It felt completely planted and docile.  You just put the power down and it goes without hesitation.  Remarkable.  Also turns easily but does not broach.  The nose just slides down the waves like on auto-pilot.  Down hammer and go.  Pretty easy peasy stuff.

So being only the second time out - this was an unmitigated success DB.  This is what I do to take a break and relax.  And can say anyone who is on a 25 and finds that too stable - should get a 23.  Without hesitation.  Was thinking on flat the 21.5 Sprint would probably be perfectly ok as well.  As noted - has a very odd underbody concept - but it somehow works a charm.  And can feel the deep concave like our Bullet when it slams into a wave.  It is a very specific feeling of slamming in control.  Power and balance wise - increased to about 85% of normal this time.  And sometimes was at 100% .  So progressing very nicely.  Would expect a couple more times out in windier conditions - all the bugs will get squashed.  Legs did not tire at all this time.

Anyways - just an unbiased update on the 23 from someone who paddles around the Vancouver and Squamish areas.  Would add though - I did not fall in - and was not even close to falling in.  So the 23 is only recommended for paddlers who have reasonable balance and do not fall in much.  You all know how much I despise getting wet.   ;)
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Eagle

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Re: 2016 Starboard Allstar 14 x 25
« Reply #56 on: June 30, 2016, 04:12:25 PM »
As a reformed marketer--well, at least I'm no longer being PAID to lie about other people's products

Haha - that's pretty funny.  Like your candor in an odd way. ;)
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PonoBill

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Re: 2016 Starboard Allstar 14 x 25
« Reply #57 on: June 30, 2016, 09:12:35 PM »
When I was running an advertising agency and people asked me what I did, I generally said "I lie about other people's products for money".  True dat.
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ukgm

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Re: 2016 Starboard Allstar 14 x 25
« Reply #58 on: June 30, 2016, 11:03:51 PM »
Yeah basically I go through something like that - and get to the nub.  The other stuff is a lot of fluff and puff.  Thoughts were -> but that was only for you.  What about me paddling it? 

Does he get any comp if people buy boards and stuff because of what he writes in his blog?  That may be a consideration.  How many people would buy a 2016 if his results showed the 2015 was faster?  That would go over well with his masters.

It is pretty clear to me how bias and other bs can easily creep into the equations.  So am skeptical of reviews and tests - since they may be for marketing or click bait or some other purpose.

Best are reviews and tests by people that have no vested interest in the result outcome with many subjects.  Like double blind clinical trials independently funded and repeated by others -> to validate the findings.  Printed and published and verifiable by you if you did the same test with the same parameters and protocols.  Now just apply that to SUP testing in some way.

One of the factors to also consider is:
Think about how bad a reviewer would look in the eyes of the public for sharing false information.

Say Larry lies and says:
The 2016 is faster.
12 people go out and all find that the 2015 is in fact faster.
Larry would look like a fool, and his good (great) name would go down, fast.
I think I can speak for Larry, and many other people who spend a lot of time reviewing equipment:
Sponsored or not, people are not going to lie. There's just too much at stake!

The worst, and I mean the worst case scenario:
Results may be omitted, but what will remain "visible" has got to be the truth, for anything other than the truth wouldn't be worth any amount of money potentially paid by a given "sponsor".

Perhaps we should think about that.

There is a difference between a lie and those of omissions or under representation. It's not so much a lie issue as it is one of bias so that's why all conflicts of interests, limitations and known bias's should really be expected and declared transparently. If 100 people find the 2016 faster, the original tester could then just claim that their results are individual anyway or argue over each other respective methodologies. It's not unheard of in published research studies to see counter claims.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 11:52:20 PM by ukgm »

photofr

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Re: 2016 Starboard Allstar 14 x 25
« Reply #59 on: June 30, 2016, 11:31:24 PM »
The fact is that from the beginning, and certainly by now, everyone knows that I take photos for different brands, including STARBOARD -

You want me to say that I am a sponsored rider, or paid to write good things about SB, but that would be a lie.
You want honesty in reports and reviews: that's very understandable - but don't ask others to lie about their affiliations.

There's a conflict of interest the second you buy or try anything, or look at any color... so grow up, be honest with yourself, be honest to others. If you are going to review something, just do your best to share details in your findings.

No one's forcing you to read my reviews, or any one else's... but stop the winning regarding "affiliation" or sponsored riders. You are not 12.

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