Author Topic: Sharia Law  (Read 10638 times)

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Re: Sharia Law
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2015, 05:14:56 AM »
Jeb Bush is now saying "make it a war." Cruz and Trump would almost certainly advocate the same.  In this context, is not Hilary's approach (likely very similar to Obama's) the better option?

Trump actually must have had a lucid moment when it came to Syria, “I want to sit back––and this does not sound like me very much––but I want to sit back and I want to see what happens. You know Russia got bogged down when it was Soviet Union in Afghanistan. thought it would be quick and easy. I think it’s not going to be great for them if you want to know the truth. They got bogged down. It destroyed the Soviet Union, Afghanistan. now they’re going into Syria, there are so many traps, there are so many problems. When I heard they were going in to fight ISIS, great, let them.”

As war rhetoric is ramping up you have to admire the false choice that is being presented.  Essentially, should we or should we not choose to eliminate ISIS in Syria.  Not to mention that Syria with a relatively small area and 22 Million population has a higher population density than either Iraq or Afghanistan from which we would need to tweeze individuals or small clusters (the jargon apparently assumes that we believe Syria is an open desert with nicely defined cluster of terrorists mulling about in the dunes) .  Not to mention that ISIS is not a country, a location, a region but an ideology that has successfully changed names, hopped borders and morphed as required. Not to mention that ISIS formed and grew in Iraq while our troops were present and at near peak levels.

stoneaxe

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Re: Sharia Law
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2015, 09:20:06 AM »
The ones that are intentionally murdering children and anyone else that doesn't agree with their brand of Islam, buying and selling women....those nutbags.
Bob

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Re: Sharia Law
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2015, 10:34:52 AM »
As war rhetoric is ramping up you have to admire the false choice that is being presented.  Essentially, should we or should we not choose to eliminate ISIS in Syria.  Not to mention that Syria with a relatively small area and 22 Million population has a higher population density than either Iraq or Afghanistan from which we would need to tweeze individuals or small clusters (the jargon apparently assumes that we believe Syria is an open desert with nicely defined cluster of terrorists mulling about in the dunes) .  Not to mention that ISIS is not a country, a location, a region but an ideology that has successfully changed names, hopped borders and morphed as required. Not to mention that ISIS formed and grew in Iraq while our troops were present and at near peak levels.

And who we would be fighting is not that easy to identify. There are a half dozen groups fighting for control in Syria, some clearly terrorists - ISIS, Hezbollah, al Qaeda, and the al-Nusra Front. Do we just fight ISIS or do we take on all of those groups? If we eliminate just ISIS, one of those other groups will fill the void. Is that what we want? And if there is one thing we learned in Iraq, it is that while there might be a lot of tribal/sectarian in-fighting going on, once a foreign invader enters the country, they all band together to fight that invader. We would not be received with welcome arms in Syria.

And even if we kill ISIS in Syria, it is not clear that will stop terrorist acts in Europe. The terrorists are coming from the French, British, and Belgium slums of Islamic immigrants who are incited through Internet propaganda. France (and others) needs to solve the problem of their large population of disaffected, unemployed immigrants. ISIS can simply move its propaganda machinery to some other corner of the world from Syria. The European problem is an Internet phenomenon as much as anything.
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Re: Sharia Law
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2015, 11:20:23 AM »
The ones that are intentionally murdering children and anyone else that doesn't agree with their brand of Islam, buying and selling women....those nutbags.

Those are indeed Nutbags.  But...they exist in numerous countries across the globe and they grow based on our aggression.  We are their best recruiting tool.   Fighting location based wars against an ideology has and will continue to prove counterproductive. 

stoneaxe

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Re: Sharia Law
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2015, 11:41:30 AM »
I understand that this is a problem created by the west, but I'm not so sure walking away right now is an option. What exactly will satisfy them....do we cede the entire of the middle east and beyond to radical islam? If I thought that would be the end of it I might make that deal.

I'd like to get rid of all the nut bags...we certainly have enough of our own.
Bob

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Re: Sharia Law
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2015, 12:32:53 PM »
I think we created a mess that might not be fixable.  Picking up and leaving is not the right answer but neither is staying.  What is the solution?  I have no clue and I feel there might not be one.

Weasels wake

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Re: Sharia Law
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2015, 12:36:39 PM »
And even if we kill ISIS in Syria, it is not clear that will stop terrorist acts in Europe. The terrorists are coming from the French, British, and Belgium slums of Islamic immigrants who are incited through Internet propaganda. France (and others) needs to solve the problem of their large population of disaffected, unemployed immigrants. ISIS can simply move its propaganda machinery to some other corner of the world from Syria. The European problem is an Internet phenomenon as much as anything.
They may be moving already, they are very mobile having proved that many times.  The leader of the Paris attacks is reported to already be back in Syria, he got away, as ISIS may be moving to Libya, another vacuumed out country.

SAS are in Libya tracking influx of ISIS commanders setting up new HQ after being bombed out of Syria
Both UK and US special forces in Libya to combat ISIS spreading
Concern has focused on the port city of Sirte, just 400m south of Sicily
ISIS  is estimated to have around 2,000 active fighters in Libya

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3339773/SAS-Libya-tracking-influx-ISIS-commanders-setting-new-HQ-bombed-Syria.html#ixzz3t0cnHQV3

I'm with Stoney on this one, doing nothing is not an option.
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Re: Sharia Law
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2015, 05:28:11 PM »
Everybody is always quick to blame us ( the US) for what is going on, but I believe it would have eventually manifested on it's own, was a matter of time, the Arab spring would have been the Arab Fall instead..... not doubt Iraq was a HUGH mistake but when millions of people have no jobs and no future (before we got into it) what is their purpose, the teens and 20 somethings? What do they have to lose .......Nuttiness whether Nazi or Islam is a result or dispair and no future and no jobs a breeding ground (idle hands) and the governments are all corrupt they want their people to focus on the west as the enemy    .....Fighting the West or infidels gives them a purpose in life...... But there is no way at this point we can stay on the sidelines BUT I believe their will be a MAJOR conflict in our future and I have young kids ...... Scary times I'm 52 and I believe this is the most dangerous times in my life ( I was a little young to remember hiding under our desks in school from nukes) 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 06:04:25 PM by funkart »

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Re: Sharia Law
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2015, 05:43:08 PM »
I understand that this is a problem created by the west, but I'm not so sure walking away right now is an option. What exactly will satisfy them....do we cede the entire of the middle east and beyond to radical islam? If I thought that would be the end of it I might make that deal.

I'd like to get rid of all the nut bags...we certainly have enough of our own.

I hear you, Bob.  No easy answers.  The only issue I have is that the Middle East is not ours to cede.  Imagine the sandal on the other foot.  Middle Eastern powers over here, shocking and aweing us, Arming and training (who?), bombing our cities for decades.  Yes, the answer is to leave and yes, it will be a mess behind us.  Real war costs for Iraq and Afghanistan are 4 Trillion dollars.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/study-iraq-afghan-war-costs-to-top-4-trillion/2013/03/28/b82a5dce-97ed-11e2-814b-063623d80a60_story.html
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 05:44:49 PM by Admin »

stoneaxe

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Re: Sharia Law
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2015, 08:49:38 PM »
I understand all that.....but walking away now?...I don't think these guys are going to stop.
Bob

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Re: Sharia Law
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2015, 03:48:08 AM »
I understand all that.....but walking away now?...I don't think these guys are going to stop.

They are not going to stop.  That is the sad truth.  Add to that they are ideologically driven and have nothing to lose.  That is a nightmare enemy. 

We are all so used to being able to take strong action and get a desired result that it seems like we should do the same here.  But, continuing to try to extract them from this region militarily both won't work and will strengthen the foundation of their ideology. 

It takes major political stones to leave a region like this knowing that the area will suffer greatly (there is no avoiding that) and that future attacks will occur abroad (this will happen regardless of our presence or lack thereof in the Middle East) and that both of those things will be attributed to the man who makes the call to leave, not those who called us to arms. 


eastbound

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Re: Sharia Law
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2015, 04:55:15 AM »
i cant endorse sending our young people to the horror of war if the mission and the result arent totally clear cut.

and, like i say, since wwII every time we've put boots on the ground, it's been a disaster--expensive in $$ terms, and more importantly human terms. makes me crazy to see a severely damaged vet, when i know they were conned into folly. makes me fucking angry.

put the "deciders" on the front line if they "decide" to send our kids to war anywhere.

and admin--when one considers the "austerity" BS put on us by powers that be, and the evisceration of our middle class after 40 years of real wage deflation in the face of massive wealth trickle-up, that we can casually toss huge bux in the the war worm hole disgusts me.
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Re: Sharia Law
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2015, 02:02:52 AM »
I think I said the same thing Eastbound wrote when I was in college during Vietnam.  "put the "deciders" on the front line if they "decide" to send our kids to war anywhere."  I still feel that way.  Put old farts like PBill and me on the front lines.  We've had outasight lives yet have great instincts for self preservation.

 In 1952 two democrats (political parties alighning differently than they do now) introduced the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 to stem the flow of immigrants fleeing communist oppression in eastern Europe.

Currently GOP hopeful D Trump is dredging up this 1952 act that was vetoed by President Truman, who characterized it as absurd. The folly continues as the act describes undesirables, including those who make their living living off gambling. Obviously Trump didn't take the time to read it.

For perspective I think it's pretty well accepted that the internment of US nationals of Japanese ancestry during WWII was a travesty.

I've been to Islamic countries and I can't stand the religion as much as all the religions of the world, including Buddhists.  And I'm not fond of anything middle eastern including all three religions that originated from the area but there are Muslims serving in the US military and thousands that have already died in service to our country and if we are going to allow any religions I figure we have to allow all of them all.  First Amendment and all.  If we are going to uphold the second amendment then we have to digest the first one as well.

Another perspective.  The KKK murdered people and fire bombed churches in the 60s.  They preached the overthrow of the US government.  Local southerners keep quiet about who were the perps.  They preached taking back the country from the jews and blacks (they called them something else back then) for white christians.  Were all christians like them?



raf

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Re: Sharia Law
« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2015, 08:40:49 AM »
But seriously, what is your point here Randy. You're saying Sharia law is just fine? How about we put the Mormons in charge. That work for you? There's a reason we think a separation of church and state is important. Makes me gag to hear any politician rattling on about religion.

Sharia law is law in all of the countries that need to actually settle extremism in the Middle East (their region) without our military involvement .  Our "allies" Saudi Arabia, Pakistan (Nukes), Egypt, etc, etc all have Sharia law.  The term Sharia to many Muslims refers to the adherence to the word of the Quran.  The press uses the terms Sharia and Sharia Law interchangeably.  They are not interchangeable.  Sharia law as it is enacted is a man-made construct that varies in application from country to country. 

There are 1.6 Billion Muslims.  The news says 30,000 in ISIS.  My math says .0000875.  ISIS (whoops, Daesh today) is a rebranding of Al Qaeda.  This is extremism and it is awful.  We take a great deal of responsibility for its existence and we strengthen that group daily.  Extremism is not Islam.  That is the message.

Our actions have displaced 7.6 Million civilians in the Middle East, Killed 210,00 civilians.  http://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/.  We have destabilized this region for so many years.  Do we not expect extremism?   What level of anger and vengeance do you create when you remove someones family, home, job, electric, school, food, water, money...?  Consider Katrina and how quickly our people degraded to base action without the structure of society.  Weeks vs Decades, Portions of a state vs Multiple Countries.

Consider Black Lives Matter.  Each single youth that is killed here in an unjustified instance creates a national uproar.  Multiply by 210,000.

Consider what we project with this: The Vatican revealed Tuesday that over the past decade, it has defrocked 848 priests who raped or molested children and sanctioned another 2,572 with lesser penalties.  http://www.cbsnews.com/news/vatican-reveals-how-many-priests-defrocked-for-sex-abuse-since-2004/ .  Our moral code puts defrocking and sanctioning as the correct punishment for child rape.  Record attendance in the USA for the pope's recent visit. 

What high ground do we stand on?  Is it our role to project our ethics (whatever those might be)?  Have we had any success at doing so?  What targets?  We have overlooked genocides to focus on one region.

damn, thats a post!  bringing it

magentawave

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Re: Sharia Law
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2015, 11:29:04 AM »
But seriously, what is your point here Randy. You're saying Sharia law is just fine? How about we put the Mormons in charge. That work for you? There's a reason we think a separation of church and state is important. Makes me gag to hear any politician rattling on about religion.

Sharia law is law in all of the countries that need to actually settle extremism in the Middle East (their region) without our military involvement .  Our "allies" Saudi Arabia, Pakistan (Nukes), Egypt, etc, etc all have Sharia law.  The term Sharia to many Muslims refers to the adherence to the word of the Quran.  The press uses the terms Sharia and Sharia Law interchangeably.  They are not interchangeable.  Sharia law as it is enacted is a man-made construct that varies in application from country to country. 

There are 1.6 Billion Muslims.  The news says 30,000 in ISIS.  My math says .0000875.  ISIS (whoops, Daesh today) is a rebranding of Al Qaeda.  This is extremism and it is awful.  We take a great deal of responsibility for its existence and we strengthen that group daily.  Extremism is not Islam.  That is the message.

Our actions have displaced 7.6 Million civilians in the Middle East, Killed 210,00 civilians.  http://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/.  We have destabilized this region for so many years.  Do we not expect extremism?   What level of anger and vengeance do you create when you remove someones family, home, job, electric, school, food, water, money...?  Consider Katrina and how quickly our people degraded to base action without the structure of society.  Weeks vs Decades, Portions of a state vs Multiple Countries.

Consider Black Lives Matter.  Each single youth that is killed here in an unjustified instance creates a national uproar.  Multiply by 210,000.

Consider what we project with this: The Vatican revealed Tuesday that over the past decade, it has defrocked 848 priests who raped or molested children and sanctioned another 2,572 with lesser penalties.  http://www.cbsnews.com/news/vatican-reveals-how-many-priests-defrocked-for-sex-abuse-since-2004/ .  Our moral code puts defrocking and sanctioning as the correct punishment for child rape.  Record attendance in the USA for the pope's recent visit. 

What high ground do we stand on?  Is it our role to project our ethics (whatever those might be)?  Have we had any success at doing so?  What targets?  We have overlooked genocides to focus on one region.

damn, thats a post!  bringing it

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