Author Topic: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?  (Read 9597 times)

FloridaWindSUP

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 335
  • Marine Biologist, Riviera Paddlesurf Ambassador
    • View Profile
    • James' Blog
Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2015, 06:28:41 AM »
I would expect that cyclists would have this already figured out. A little googling about bikes might help.

You're right. I googled "bicycle rider weight advantage headwind" and found a lot of analyses all supporting the idea that heavier riders have an advantage going into the wind... Which also gives them an advantage on flat ground and downhill, where wind drag is a big limiting factor. However, light bike riders have an advantage uphill, where speeds are too slow for wind resistance to matter as much as the other forms of resistance.
14x23 Riviera RP
14x27.25 Fanatic Falcon
11'8 Exocet WindSUP
10'4 Angulo WindSUP
...and a bunch of windsurf stuff

Off-Shore

  • Teahupoo Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 1663
    • View Profile
    • HksupaHK SUP and Downwinding
Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2015, 08:01:05 AM »
If you have ever tried paddling against winds that are almost too strong to paddle against you will understand the effort required to make headway is like trying to do crunches at the same time as heavy bench presses, albeit in the vertical standing position. It's brute strength but also speed and technique that gets you moving forward. So in marginal headwinds the lighter person will be faster, but IMO as wind speed increases it favours the bigger stronger paddler.
SB 9' x 33' x 4.1" - RPC 9'8" iSUP - SB All-Star 12'6" - Blue Planet Bump Rider 14 - SB Ace 14 x 27 - RedAir 14' Elite Race - SIC Bullet 14v1 TWC - SICMaui F16v3 Custom

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/HksupaHk_SUP_and_Downwinding

Area 10

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4057
    • View Profile
Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2015, 10:06:50 AM »
The difference between SUP and cycling is that when the wind gets up when you are cycling, the ground doesn't change. When the wind gets up with paddling, the water develops bumps, and it is those that are a major problem rather than the wind.

The difference in opinion between the people giving "yes" answers and those giving the "no" answers here is, I think, because the two groups of people are concentrating on different dynamics. The "yes" (heavier people do have an advantage) contributors are thinking about wind resistance. The "no" people are thinking about what happens to the surface of the water when the wind gets up. This discussion has not yet really addressed this second factor. A whole lot of things happen when the wind gets up and you start going into bumpy water - even just little ripples. But the most important thing is that the glide of the board reduces. This means that the stop-start nature of the stroke becomes exaggerated. And this will mean that progress becomes a lot about the paddler's power-to-weight ratio. There are other factors too, such as the fact that the board will sit lower in the water with a heavier paddler so chop may affect the board more. These factors are likely to swamp differences due to windage/surface area.

And this is the reason why you can't use information from cycling as a particularly good model of what is going on., A cycle track does not suddenly become bumpy when the wind gets up. Think what would happen if it did, and you might conclude that lighter riders would have an advantage because there would be more "uphill" cycling than on a flat surface.

As I, and others, have said before, there is a reason why virtually all the top racers (and for that matter, gymnasts) are fairly small and light. It's about power-to-weight ratios, and the tougher conditions get in terms of wind and chop, the more advantage having a favourable power-to-weight ratio is. Put Kai Lenny and Dave Kalama in a 32-mile upwind race in the sea, and they will end up a lot further apart at the end than if they were both going downwind. Dave Kalama will be able to generate much more power overall than Kai, but his power-to-weight ratio will not be as high.

But, if you paddle a course where there are strong winds but this creates negligible changes to the water surface (which can happen in some specific spots) then it is possible that the heavier person might have an advantage, perhaps.

Eagle

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2426
    • View Profile
Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2015, 02:28:43 PM »
Simply add 50 lbs to your board or in a pack to see if you are slower upwind -> or DW.  A heavier paddler must have more muscle mass and better balance just to break even.

Travis and Kai and the like do well on the M2O for good reasons -> strength to weight is probably a big one.   ;)
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

TallDude

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 5714
  • Capistrano Beach
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2015, 04:26:44 PM »
No one passes me when I'm cranking upwind on my board or road bike. Why would they, I'm 6'7 and keeping a good pace. Aside form the front pack, the rest of the world drafts me. It's like following a semi truck in VW bug. I remember doing 100 mile road races, my mind drifting somewhere else. I'm thinking about the open space around me. No one in front of me. Then I hear a free-wheel behind me. I look back and there's 20 people drafting me. It's pointless for me to rotate with them. I'm a foot higher than any of them. Even riding a 60cm frame is a size down for me.

I do very well keeping momentum with my 240 lb's. My low profile unlimited helps too. I keep my head down, dig deep, stand in a staggered regular foot stance, and pull longer on my right side. I foot steer my board towards my paddle side so I can paddle mostly right side and stay straight. A little trick I learned racing skis was to rotate my shoulders to lower my wind resistance and maintain speed when facing an up slope wind. Sometimes I would square my shoulders to control my speed. When I downwind (down breeze really) I use my 1 meter sail sized back to my advantage by keeping my shoulders square while paddling. I feel the push if I stand tall. I change my paddle stroke for different conditions. For upwind I pay close attention to feathering my paddle blade on the release, then snapping it to let the wind push the blade back under at the top of my stroke.
It's not overhead to me!
8'8" L-41 ST and a whole pile of boards I rarely use.

JF808

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 526
  • From Big Island!
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2015, 09:39:03 PM »
I think in heavy upwind conditions it comes down to pure strength and endurance, so a stronger fitter person will win. Technique also has a lot to do with it (using your core + body-weight particularly)...

I agree. paddling up wind on a SUP is totally different from a cyclist. I think your all thinking too hard. It's probably something as simple as this other paddler simply had better technique. your also not condisdering brute strength, he could have just powered through. I see it all the time. Here locally I never count out the larger guys, they are a lot stronger then I am, and Im not gonna lie, I've had 200lb + guys beat me. next tiem dont let em brainwash you.

look at guys like Thomas Maximus, you think you can beat him? dont count em out

« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 09:40:38 PM by JF808 »

robon

  • Teahupoo Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 1155
    • View Profile
Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2015, 09:52:32 PM »
I think in heavy upwind conditions it comes down to pure strength and endurance, so a stronger fitter person will win. Technique also has a lot to do with it (using your core + body-weight particularly)...

I agree. paddling up wind on a SUP is totally different from a cyclist. I think your all thinking too hard. It's probably something as simple as this other paddler simply had better technique. your also not condisdering brute strength, he could have just powered through. I see it all the time. Here locally I never count out the larger guys, they are a lot stronger then I am, and Im not gonna lie, I've had 200lb + guys beat me. next tiem dont let em brainwash you.

look at guys like Thomas Maximus, you think you can beat him? dont count em out

Once again, there is a major reason the very top racers in the sport aren't heavy and overly muscle bound. They are typically lighter than than the average person, and, much lighter and smaller overall than heavier athletes carrying a lot of muscle. For the most part going Up wind, guys like Ching, Baxter, and Kai are blowing the heavier racers out of the water. Heavier, elite racers that are highly skilled usually don't keep pace with them upwind. Sure, technique has a lot to do with it, and there can be exceptions to the rule, but overall it's the smaller, lighter guys that do better upwind over long distances. I weigh 200 pounds and with an improving stroke, I have surprised myself paddling with lighter guys, but I have also personally experienced the difference in paddling with guys that are 20+ plus pounds lighter over long distances upwind, and there just seems to be a big time difference when skills sets are close to being equal.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 10:06:15 PM by robon »

JF808

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 526
  • From Big Island!
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2015, 10:44:45 PM »
I'm not saying power to weight ratio isn't a factor. but your missing the point of this post. I'm not saying the larger guy has an advantage in the wind at all.  This is about an event that already happened. And this isn't about conner or kai racing against heavier people

I agree a sumo wrestler isn't going to beat conner or kai, everyone knows this... no need to break out the calculator to figure out this one. But what transpired here wasn't a race among pro's. If the heavier paddler won... the heavier paddler won, you need to give credit where credit is due. and in the case of "floridewindsup" I dont think weight was the deciding factor here
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 10:49:43 PM by JF808 »

yugi

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2228
    • View Profile
Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2015, 01:37:03 AM »
Obviously yes.
Talking about power to weight and sail area, when your size increases, your area increases by the square and mass by the cube… so a heavier paddler has , comparing to his weight, less wind-exposed area.. A lighter paddler will catch more bumps plane easier, a heavier paddler may be come comfortable in chop and wind against.

This is my take on it as well. Seems to make sense from a physics perspective.  However I don’t have much good real world data either way.

If all other factors are considered equal, I would think so too.  Since as indicated by Pierre, the heavier person will usually have more mass per given frontal area and so will naturally slip through the wind with less resistance.  An example of this would be a downhill racer in a full tuck vs. standing.

If you’re talking about the heavier person having more mass per given frontal area I hope realize the racers need to be naked. And fully shaved. Otherwise your ratios will be all messed up.

yugi

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2228
    • View Profile
Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2015, 01:50:58 AM »
Here’s a different take on it.

A heavier rider will have a disadvantage in board glide. At least for a given class of board. I think we all agree.

Now here’s the thing about upwinds. It’s much much more about paddle technique and power than about board speed. In other words a fast or slow board hardly matters going upwind - it’s much much more dependent on pure paddle output. I think this is more what you are noticing than anything else.

I spend a few years on a shorter old-school surfboard style SUP while all my friends had moved to 12’6 race boards. It was a real struggle to keep up with them (did wonders for my technique and fitness). On flats I could keep up to them if they were in cruise mode by going all out. If they’d power up I was dropped. However Upwind I was on par with them. If they were in cruise mode I could be too. If they powered up I could too and keep up and even be faster. What I’ve noticed is that the wind drag becomes the more important factor which far outweighs any differences there are in board speed. Of course for two paddlers of equal technique and strength the one on the faster board will eventually be faster. However difference in technique and strength become the far more noticeable factor.

robon

  • Teahupoo Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 1155
    • View Profile
Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2015, 08:32:40 AM »
I'm not saying power to weight ratio isn't a factor. but your missing the point of this post. I'm not saying the larger guy has an advantage in the wind at all.  This is about an event that already happened. And this isn't about conner or kai racing against heavier people

I agree a sumo wrestler isn't going to beat conner or kai, everyone knows this... no need to break out the calculator to figure out this one. But what transpired here wasn't a race among pro's. If the heavier paddler won... the heavier paddler won, you need to give credit where credit is due. and in the case of "floridewindsup" I dont think weight was the deciding factor here

Well, most people on this thread are analyzing the benefits/disadvantages of being larger and or stocky/muscular going into the wind. I have already stated that perhaps being stronger or bigger can be beneficial up wind over shorter distances. I just believe over longer distances when skill sets are more or less equal, the smaller paddler pulls away over time. Sure, kudos for the bigger/stockier/more muscular guy passing the smaller guy. Rad. With that said, I think Area 10 and several others have proven the point already. It's an interesting thread regardless.

Eagle

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2426
    • View Profile
Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2015, 03:45:56 PM »
It seems in this case the heavier paddler likely won due to "paddler skill balance endurance and strength to weight ratio" as noted.  The board may have played a part also and paddler confidence level on that board.  Easy to speculate on many factors - but to generally do better upwind -> improving endurance and technique is a good start.

As a whole though -> the recent PPG 6 mile race results reflect that no real heavy paddlers finished in the top 25.  If you can keep anything even close to the slowest here -> which was Eric Terrien - you are doing very well indeed.  Light or heavy.

http://ppg.supthemag.com/photo/day-two-distance-race-photos-and-results/
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

Weeble

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 273
    • View Profile
Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2015, 05:17:54 PM »
As always, there are a lot of factors going on, and just the honest adage of "just because it works for them, doesn't mean it works for you" that I have learned since getting into SUP.  There's a guy down in south Florida that goes about 6 foot 5 and weights around 250 lbs and he can kill it and keep up with the "smaller" guys.

I believe that I read that you are using a 110 blade?  That might work okay in shorter races, or surfing, but dropping down in size might help quite a bit not only in your cadence but wind resistance, and swing weight as well.  I used to paddle races with a Kenalu 105 on fairly flexible shaft.  I didn't realize how much it was killing me over a long distance until I dropped down to a kenalu 95 with a stiffer shaft.  However, I missed the solid bite of the 105.  Recently I went to the newer Kenalu blades with the little winglets on the blade.  i though for sure it was going to feel worse than the regular 95 blade, but it actually has the same feel of the 105's bite.  And, I'm 6 foot 2 at about 195 lbs paddling on the heavy version of the Laird Bark 14 x 30.  I also dropped weight from about 210 to 195 and that helped as well.  I'm still never going to keep up with the true athletes that I have to race against, but I have improved.

If you're using one of the big fins that a lot of people are on, I moved off of those as well.  They definitely helped in the early days until I got my stroke in tune and got a better feel for being on a board in rough conditions.  Recently I went to a 10" weed fin, very slim and it's working out well.  I had to work on my stroke again for a bit to adjust to it, but it doesn't seem to catch currents as bad as the bigger fins and when in side or quartering chop, it's easier to keep the board straight and I don't have to fight the larger area of the fin wanting to turn the board.

I also believe that I saw that you paddle a 25" board?  Are you comfortable on it?  Do your feet go numb on it?  Do your legs ever give out?  if so, it might just mean that you need more time on it to feel good on it.  I know pretty quick if I'm on a board that is too narrow for my skill or comfort level because I'll wear out on it fairly fast.  However, I recently paddled my wife's 12.6 x 25" Boga Typhoon and it went WAY better than I was expecting.

Other than that, it will probably come down to your nutrition, your cardio and the efficiency of your stroke for the conditions that you are in.
Faster than some, slower than most....
2015 Boga Typhoon 14 x 25.5 Team Edition
2013 Laird Bark Race 14
2012 Fanatic Fly Race 12.6 (the white one)
2015 Fanatic Allwave 9.5/ 2013 Fanatic Allwave 9.10
Ke Nalu Konihi 95 on an Elite 90 Flex
Ke Nalu Molokai on an Xtuf
Maliko Blade that gets interchanged

baddog

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 437
    • View Profile
Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2015, 10:26:28 AM »
Absolutely not.  Rider first for sure, but given equal speed and technique (presenting lowest wind profile ala Danny, Annabelle, Conner, etc) and boards (which can easily be the biggest difference), the bigger rider is at the disadvantage because of his higher drag profile.

But a big fin upwind is always slower.  It takes a lot more energy to keep your line with a big fin where a small fin corrects much easier, drifting the tail to keep your line.

One thing is certain; a bigger fin has bigger drag and bigger drag = slower.

SUPJorge

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 471
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2015, 10:46:48 AM »
Quote from: peterwSUPr on October 04, 2015, 06:29:16 PM

    I would expect that cyclists would have this already figured out. A little googling about bikes might help.

You're right. I googled "bicycle rider weight advantage headwind" and found a lot of analyses all supporting the idea that heavier riders have an advantage going into the wind... Which also gives them an advantage on flat ground and downhill, where wind drag is a big limiting factor. However, light bike riders have an advantage uphill, where speeds are too slow for wind resistance to matter as much as the other forms of resistance.

No, no, and no. The extra weight has to be constantly maintained and re-accelerated, offsetting any benefit of "momentum." And heavier cyclists don't "have an advantage" going into the wind or on the flats. Assuming two identical cyclists of different weights traveling at the same speed, the heavier one may bring with him greater "momentum" that will be "affected" less by the headwind, but you can't ignore that his greater weight has created greater rolling resistance which made it harder to accelerate and makes it harder to maintain that same speed.
14' SIC Bullet V2 - 9'1" Naish Hokua X32 LE

 


SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal