Author Topic: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?  (Read 9596 times)

FloridaWindSUP

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Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« on: October 03, 2015, 04:35:12 PM »
Is it easier for heavier/stockier riders to keep momentum paddling into wind and chop?

Backstory that inspired the question-

I was in an 11 mile race today that was 5.5 miles downwind then 5.5 miles upwind into nasty 15+ knots. I was late on the start (they blew the whistle when everyone was still scattered about) but I caught up to the leader pretty easily. I drafted him on the downwind until he fell, then I passed him and was first to the downwind mark. I figured I had the race in the bag- Even as I struggled grinding upwind I figured he'd be struggling worse. But he caught up with me relatively quickly and had so much more upwind speed than me that I couldn't stay with his draft. He continued to put lots of distance on me for the rest of the race, finishing in 2:14 vs. my 2:17.

It's quite possible he just had better endurance and upwind technique than me, and/or that his board (JP 14x24.5" with a small fin) was better upwind than my board (Riviera 14x25" with a big fin).

But I also wonder if weight comes into play since the winner was stockier than me by maybe 40 lbs, but not taller. The guy who won third was also a strong heavy guy, and everyone else was way back.
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Area 10

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Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2015, 05:24:03 PM »
Lots of complex factors at work. But basically no. If you had been talking about downwind then it might have been another matter. Or at least, less of a matter. It's all about power-to-weight ratios, and the reason why pretty much all the top pro SUPers are light is because the power-to-weight ratio tends to become less favourable as you get heavier. Kai Lenny probably had a greater power to weight ratio than Laird Hamilton. So, sorry, but the guys you had trouble with probably had better upwind technique than you did, or/and were leaner and/or were better trained or following a better race strategy. It sounds like you might want to start training specifically for upwind sections. One thought though: A smaller paddle can help quite a bit upwind: was your paddle blade bigger than theirs by any chance?

stoneaxe

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Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2015, 07:34:04 PM »
Nope...spoken from experience. Not only do I still have more mass to move but I also have more sail area than guys smaller. In heavy head on chop a stronger heavier rider might gain a slight advantage in the absence of wind but I'm not even sure about that.
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Pierre

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Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2015, 12:13:24 AM »
Obviously yes.
Talking about power to weight and sail area, when your size increases, your area increases by the square and mass by the cube... so a heavier paddler has , comparing to his weight, less wind-exposed area.. A lighter paddler will catch more bumps plane easier, a heavier paddler may be come comfortable in chop and wind against.

The board ability to plane helps as well ( I guess with 15 kts wind a flatter rocker board may work better) but in upwinding conditions, excepte a stiff board, shape and length do not have so much importance. Paddle technique and endurance, yes sure.
Another thing: If you release all your energy downwinding, it may not be enough for the way back. :)
Last but not least: paddle length: a shorter shaft is an advantage for upwinding.
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Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2015, 05:48:30 AM »
I think in heavy upwind conditions it comes down to pure strength and endurance, so a stronger fitter person will win. Technique also has a lot to do with it (using your core + body-weight particularly). If there is any upwind sections in races, I always can overtake people.
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robon

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Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2015, 08:11:21 AM »
Nope. Take two guys with the exact same ability and technique, the smaller guy with less resistance to the wind will eventually start to pull ahead. In shorter distances I can see a stronger, stockier person having advantages in being able to put the power down upwind, but over longer distances a smaller person who isn't as broad and heavy will typically have the advantage.

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Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2015, 12:07:08 PM »
Think it comes down to the paddler skill balance endurance and strength to weight ratio.   :)
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robon

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Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2015, 01:11:25 PM »
Lots of complex factors at work. But basically no. If you had been talking about downwind then it might have been another matter. Or at least, less of a matter. It's all about power-to-weight ratios, and the reason why pretty much all the top pro SUPers are light is because the power-to-weight ratio tends to become less favourable as you get heavier. Kai Lenny probably had a greater power to weight ratio than Laird Hamilton. So, sorry, but the guys you had trouble with probably had better upwind technique than you did, or/and were leaner and/or were better trained or following a better race strategy. It sounds like you might want to start training specifically for upwind sections. One thought though: A smaller paddle can help quite a bit upwind: was your paddle blade bigger than theirs by any chance?

Agreed. We had a similar discussion in regards to Hamilton surfing, and I think it would largely apply to distance paddling into the wind. Even if he was younger, his size is simply too great to keep pace with someone like Kai or Baxter for extended periods upwind or on flat conditions. Too much friction with weight on a board, and wind resistance in a body that size. There is a reason why we don't see 200+ plus pound paddlers consistently, or ever beating the top racers who are much lighter and smaller. Even guys like Trout have a very difficult time beating the top 5 and I believe it is largely because of his size, and he isn't actually all that big, just much bigger than the likes of Baxter, Ching, Kai, etc. Wind resistance on a larger body is hard to over come over longer distances imo.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 01:12:58 PM by robon »

FloridaWindSUP

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Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2015, 04:01:53 PM »
Thanks, guys. I understand that skill/technique, fitness, and gear make the biggest difference, and that heavy-but-strong riders are generally at a disadvantage, at least when there are limitations on board length.

However I do suspect that a headwind could be less disadvantageous for a heavier rider, for the same reason that a tailwind could be more advantageous for a lighter rider. Like Pierre said, the surface area that a 200 lb rider presents to the wind might be only 10% larger than that of the 150 lb rider, but the inertia of the 200 lb rider is 33% larger.

So I would predict that if a light 5'10 guy and a heavy but strong 5'10 guy are the same speed in no wind, then the light guy will be faster downwind and the heavy guy will be faster upwind. So if I'm the light guy my strategy should be to try to get a big lead on the heavy guy in the downwind, and hope he doesn't catch back up to me on the upwind.

I'll also work on my upwind technique in general. My paddle is pretty big  for 165 lb guy (Riviera R8, 110 in2) which could be a liability. I've also been using a big weed fin that makes it hard to do course corrections, so I get stuck paddling exclusively on one side if the wind is even a little bit more from one side than the other.

I put some pictures and a more detailed race report up on my blog.   

http://jimbodouglass.blogspot.com/2015/10/sup-into-wicked-headwinds-race-around.html
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Kaihoe

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Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2015, 04:35:20 PM »
 I will join in the chorus of no's, for all of the reasons above.

 Apart from (possibly) better technique your opponent has one key advantage for upwind. You used the word stocky this means that they will naturally have a lower gearing by his bottom hand being closer to the water. 

 When you are grinding up wind this makes a huge advantage because your board won't be at full speed. Its just like riding a bike up hill, unless you adjust your gearing you'll suffer the same effects.

FloridaWindSUP

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Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2015, 05:26:36 PM »
Its just like riding a bike up hill, unless you adjust your gearing you'll suffer the same effects.

I like that analogy. My trying to paddle upwind had a very similar feeling to the feeling of trying pedal a bike uphill in too high a gear. Lots of resistance to each stroke that was wearing me out. If I go to a wider/lower grip position when paddling upwind do I also have to make other adjustments, like shorter reach and faster cadence?
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Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2015, 06:29:16 PM »
I agree with a lot of what's been said about the various factors, but here's a thought.  The weight of someone is related to their volume, which is length x width x height.  OK, it also depends on their density, with muscle being heavier than fat.  The frontal surface area of a person is what affects their wind resistance.  It could be considered height times width.   If you compare a 150 lb person to a 200 lb person, the person who weights 33% more will probably not have 33% more surface area.  Unless their front to back thickness was the same, the weight should increase more than the frontal area.  If all that extra mass is muscle, the heavier guy will probably have more extra power while his surface area might not increase as much.

If there is any validity to what I'm mentioning, I would expect that cyclists would have this already figured out. A little googling about bikes might help.

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Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2015, 09:16:08 PM »
Obviously yes.
Talking about power to weight and sail area, when your size increases, your area increases by the square and mass by the cube... so a heavier paddler has , comparing to his weight, less wind-exposed area.. A lighter paddler will catch more bumps plane easier, a heavier paddler may be come comfortable in chop and wind against.

This is my take on it as well. Seems to make sense from a physics perspective.  However I don't have much good real world data either way.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 09:19:39 PM by Argosi »

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Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2015, 05:00:17 AM »
I'm trying to figure out how extra mass is a good thing? Momentum?.....where does that come from....has to be produced by the paddler. The only circumstance that I can see a heavier paddler having and advantage would be in a SUP tug-o-war.

Take identical clones, eliminate all other variables (impossible but for the sake of argument), now add 40 lbs to one of them ....which do you think does better?
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Re: Heavier Rider Advantage in Headwind?
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2015, 06:05:49 AM »
Obviously yes.
Talking about power to weight and sail area, when your size increases, your area increases by the square and mass by the cube... so a heavier paddler has , comparing to his weight, less wind-exposed area.. A lighter paddler will catch more bumps plane easier, a heavier paddler may be come comfortable in chop and wind against.

This is my take on it as well. Seems to make sense from a physics perspective.  However I don't have much good real world data either way.

If all other factors are considered equal, I would think so too.  Since as indicated by Pierre, the heavier person will usually have more mass per given frontal area and so will naturally slip through the wind with less resistance.  An example of this would be a downhill racer in a full tuck vs. standing. 


 


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