Who is working with Innegra? Here are a few things the Innegra rep told me...

[magentawave]

I've been reading about how you can make a super strong and light board with Innegra cloth. I also read that it can be a major pain in the arse to work with. Have you used Innegra? What are your experiences with working with it? Did your board come out stronger and lighter?

I just spent some time on the phone talking to the Innegra rep (Russ) and here's what he said...

- You can't sand Innegra: You never want to put Innegra where you will need to sand it because it fuzzes. That means you need to always put a layer of non Innegra cloth (E or S, etc.) on top of the Innegra.

- Vacuum bagging is optional: Apparently there are board makers out there that are hand laying and not vacuum bagging it. The key is to put a thin coat of epoxy on your sealed blank first and let the epoxy cure to the tacky stage. Once tacky, lay out the dry Innegra on the foam. The tacky epoxy will hold the Innegra in place while you squeegee the hell out of the Innegra with epoxy. If you plan on finishing the board later with opaque paint then you can free lap the Innegra around the rails and cut it wet with scissors.

- Lapping Innegra around the rails: Like I said previously, you can't free lap Innegra unless you plan to paint the board opaque later because the irregular shape of your lap cut will totally show through the clear epoxy. You can't tape off the blank where you want to cut your rail lap and then cut the Innegra later along the tape line with a razor blade because Innegra doesn't cut well with a razor blade. The rep told me that the trick to getting a clean lap line with a board with clear epoxy board is to tape off where you want the lap to end like you'd using "normal" cloth, and then put wax paper along the rails where you'll be lapping the Innegra. Then carefully cut the Innegra along your tape line. (Remember, the Innegra is being held in place with the lightly cured but still tacky epoxy everywhere but where the wax paper is.) Then pull off the wax paper and the masking tape and proceed with applying the epoxy. (He also told me that you can use a "tackifier" to hold down certain things.

Color: You can't paint your sealed blank with vivid acrylic paint without expecting the color to be deeply muted due to the color of Innegra which is either white (or black). Apparently the white Innegra is actually white which means that it doesn't turn clear after saturating with resin like E or S will do. Bummer.

Vacuum bagging Innegra: The rep told me that bagging Innegra requires 3 to 4 inches of mercury, but that is as far as we got into the subject of bagging.

Spring back: Apparently one of the things that makes it difficult to work with is that since it doesn't fully wet out like E or S, it tends to spring back, which means wrapping around sharp points like in the tail must be a major hassle. If I understood him correctly, the rep said to use some kind of stuff that comes in a rattle can called a "tackifier" for areas like wrapping it around the rails at the tail. (By the way, that spring back is also one of the things that makes Innegra good for surfboards because it will dent but denting doesn't cut the Innegra which is what happens with many other types of cloths.)

[Ichabod Spoonbill]

How much sturdier is innegra than other constructions?

[mrbig]

Magenta, I have never made any kind of surf craft in my 50 years of riding and fixing them. The information that I was attempting to pass on was based on several conversations with both Dave Deum and Ed Angulo.

I am impressed that the Rep is telling the whole truth with regards to the difficulties in laminating Innegra. All of the experiences that Dave and Ed passed on to me were clearly told to you and you did a great job in presenting the information.

As a guy who has had two Innegra boards from Dave Daum at King's it is very light, and durable over time. Seems to be very resistant to paddle hits and the like as well as immune to pressure dings. Rock impact resistance is also excellent.

My 7'11" x 31.5" x 4.4" x 117 liter CB3 was glassed with a single layer of white 4 oz. Innegra over 1.5 foam and weighs 15.6  pounds with pad, fins, RSP, and wax on the nose.

Hope this helps a little. PM me if you like..

[PonoBill]

<<lifted from the innegra rail tape thread>>
Dave Daum is at the level that can probably use window screen and make it work. But for me, when I say big mess, I'm understating the issue. I had it lifting up over every bend. I did what experts suggest and laid on a thin layer of epoxy and let it get tacky, and that worked, but as soon as I wet out the innegra, up it came. I can't believe it was some kind of solvent effect, softening the epoxy. I don't think it does that. No idea what the mechanism was. So I laid on some prewet 4 OZ and tried to get it back in place. It kept popping up like zombie corpses. I finally tore the whole mess off and tossed it in the trash. Then I had to resand the board to get off all the epoxy gooped on it. Fricken horrible. The board is still sitting around, unfinished.

I also got a pair of scissors just for Kevlar. They're handy for trimming the edge of carbon that's bound with a kevlar thread. Cutting the Innegra with them was like using those blunt kindergarten scissors.>>

I might try it again sometime, but just because I'm stubborn and always think that if someone else can do something, I should be able to. That's not true of course, I'm just psychotic that way.  I never heard of tackifier. Maybe that's the magic ingredient.

[mrbig]

The additional LABOR involved with Innegra lamination added $500.00 to the cost of s board at the retail level. Needless to say..

Dave had to vacuum bag; had to epoxy and sand, tackify; and I was asked to shake, rattle, and hum. Distance mojo ..

Bill, I believe you know first hand 'bout that labor!!     

[PonoBill]

I should have taken a picture. Would have kept me from trying it again. Instant humility.

[magentawave]

Bill, your experience isn't unusual as I read similar Innegra horror stories at Swaylocks.

I should have taken a picture. Would have kept me from trying it again. Instant humility.

[magentawave]

Guys, before I started this thread I sent a PM to Karl who is a regular on here and has made some really nice boards. Anyway, Karl has worked with Innegra and kindly replied to my PM with the following excellent information.

From Karl:

"This is what I do on 1.5# foam - 4oz glass - 2oz inneggra - 4oz glass.

Roll out each layer on the blank and cut each to shape.

I cut the inneggra slightly wider because it moves around alot.

Then I roll each layer off separately.

Glass the 4oz as you usually would - on the blank or wet out table.

Lay the inneggra onto the tacky first glass layer - it will soak up the excess resin and if it's tacky it sits in place well. Otherwise it can slide around a bit.

I then glass the inneggra with a squeegy, but try not to put too much resin on as it will soak up everything you put on. It is hard to tell that it's well wet out because it goes really white in colour when wet out.

Then I glass the last layer on in the regular way. If you've put lots of resin on the inneggra then this final layer will soak it up quite abit too.

I have wrapped inneggra around rails with success this way. But equally you can just cut it to the edges of the bottom without wrapping.

It doesn't sit well over fin boxes and tends to get lots of bubbles, but I just put lots of resin on and stick around as it cures to try to poke any bubbles that appear around the fin boxes.

I've never tried bagging it.

Hope that helps."

[magentawave]

I don't know how to decipher the specs but the bottom line with Innegra is that you can use less layers of cloth because the stuff is so strong - and that means a lighter board. The scary part seems to be working with it. The rep said he was going to send me samples to play with. I'm going to take some shipping foam blocks and shape a rail with it and see if I can make it wrap and stick in order to avoid PonoBill's nightmare experience. I will play around with a tackifier too. I also want to see how muted a bright yellow and green acrylic paint (painted on the sealed blank) will become after adding the layer of white Innegra. Stay tuned because everyone that has the glassing of Innegra down says it's strong and light and everyone that didn't gave up in frustration and threw the mess into the trash can.

How much sturdier is innegra than other constructions?

[karl]

Hi
I'm no expert. Made three surfboards and one surf SUP with innegra, so take my experience with a grain of salt.

I like it and will keep using it because it adds thickness to the skin for little additional weight. It does not add much stiffness so is good for improving durability without licking a board up. It also seems to dissipate impacts really well.

Others on swaylocks are getting similar benefits with less fuss using plastic netting (not vector net) do there srd other options.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

[Vancouver_foiler]

The additional LABOR involved with Innegra lamination added $500.00 to the cost of s board at the retail level. Needless to say..

Dave had to vacuum bag; had to epoxy and sand, tackify; and I was asked to shake, rattle, and hum. Distance mojo ..

Bill, I believe you know first hand 'bout that labor!!     

Can you decipher the "epoxy and sand, tackify, shake rattle and hum" paragraph please. I ordered some 4oz carbon innegra cloth to laminate my next wingboard with. After reading this I def will be vacuuming to hold it down over the rails and corners. What is this tackify stuff? Does it sand similar to kevlar? (Most people don't know you can wetsand  kevlar.)

How about a laminating schedule for a wingboard-any suggestions? I was thinking 4 innegra and 4s on the bottom with 2 -4oz s and one 4oz innegra/carbon on the deck

[surfcowboy]

I think most folks use 2 Oz, I could be wrong.

3m super 77 or similar/lighter will hold stuff down. Just spray adhesive works.

Never sanded near it but everyone says it fuzzes like hell.

[finbox]

I was told that the innegra will float to the top of the resin, that makes it need a top coat of fiberglass cloth to keep it from floating in at wet layup.

[surfcowboy]

Bagging is not hard and is 100% worth it.

[Vancouver_foiler]

The thing about using  a cover of glass is that the three fabrics (carbon, ineggra and s-glass) all have
 such differing properties I'm tempted to just through on another 6oz carbon layer as my sanding layer.
Fill it with a white pigmented slurry and sand to get a brushed carbon effect.
Dunno,  maybe im overthinking it. I'm trying to think really plan this one out to avoid the PONO innegra shit show lol.