Author Topic: Leash Use.  (Read 63524 times)

kjulks

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #165 on: August 30, 2015, 07:56:54 AM »
I don't accept that the only alternative to "leashes save lives" is a page of complicated text.

You have a valid point, but criticism alone won't solve the problem we all want solving, which is that people are routinely risking their lives needlessly. So I'd welcome hearing some suggestions from you for alternative messages that get across the need to understand the importance of leashes as part of your potential life-saving equipment. It also needs to be simple enough to be effective.
You're right. And so is PonoBill. Sorry for just being on the negative side of the issue. I just wanted to make sure that those points were brought up and defended.

As far as suggestions... in wilderness medicine we use a lot of TLAs (probably borrowed from the military) because they're easy to remember. Mnemonics in general are pretty standard for helping convey complex messages with formulaic outputs. (ABCDE for life threats, rule of 3s for survival, SAMPLE, etc) So something that captured that simple input->output and was memorable...

So here's the brainstorm, feel free to critique the hell out of it since I've been dishing critiques all day.

Input              Output
Lake               PFD on or leash (redundancy wouldn't be bad)
River*             PFD on, leash aware
Surf*               Leash
Downwind*     Leash (PFD as redundancy wouldn't be bad)
Cold                Redundancy +++
Whitewater    Not experienced enough to say. Lots of gear.

* denotes the scenarios where one or the other could be detrimental to your margin of safety. ie, a leash in a river could easily lead to a snag scenario, a PFD on in surf means you're not getting under waves, a downwind without a leash means you're waving goodbye to your board.

So maybe just targeting those three in particular. You guys would know better than me, but my gut tells me that people wearing PFDs in surf isn't a huge issue. In other words, you might not even need to highlight the need to NOT wear a PFD in the surf. (Not talking about tow-ins and that kind of craziness.)

Waves and bumps -> leash
Moving water -> PFD

So uh... Leash it up for wind and waves, float it down the river. That's dumb... DSL,PR? Downwind Surf Leash, P(FD) River? Those are existing ubiquitous acronyms, might be easy to remember. Eh... "Would you put a leash on your dog swimming in the river?" Nah, too emotionally charged and a bit of a stretch... SPR(a)WL -> Stream PReserver Waves/Wind Leash

« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 08:10:40 AM by kjulks »

Off-Shore

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #166 on: August 30, 2015, 08:27:58 AM »

Here is the ACA's take:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMjgnFPnEqU

That is a must watch Video.. Very clear and educational. All we need now is to add a piece to this on downwinding.
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goodfornothin

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #167 on: August 30, 2015, 08:30:42 AM »
Seems to me as outside observer,,,,you guys are way over thinking this.  Acronyms,  videos, work shops, Ted talks, next up govt policies,,when does it stop.  At some point the responsibility to stay safe is on your shoulders, and yours alone.  There appears to be solid videos allready, and all.the other media seems to be in place.

Make the safest components available at the rentals and at the shops. Reduce the price of leashes and pfd's to encourage use.  The rest should be on the users shoulders.

Waist leash, just sayin

Works in rivers
Works in oceans
Works in lakes

Because you can safely exit the device, instantly, under duress or static pressure.  How about making these available at everyones shop that owns one here at the zone.  They are the easiest thing in the world to build. You can even embroider your  shop name on belt. That's kinda cool, in a kooky way.

PonoBill

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #168 on: August 30, 2015, 08:55:24 AM »
GoodforNuttin'--this is what forums are for. I always think it's cheeseball to quote a definition, but this is the definition of forum: a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

The sole responsibility for safety doesn't rest just with the person taking the risks. If that were true there wouldn't be a 34 million vehicle recall on Takata airbags going on right now. You assume your airbag makes you safer, and when it goes off you get drilled with nine pieces of shrapnel through the heart. Oops.
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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #169 on: August 30, 2015, 09:06:52 AM »
Let's let the discussion be our contribution here.  Warren started a great thread.  Frankly, after all of the social media quick hits have faded from site (no typo) this will still be high in the search results and hopefully, the thought process that goes into your safety decisions will help newcomers make theirs.

Of interest.  Of kids under 18, 62 percent, either cannot swim or consider themselves weak swimmers.  It is 54 percent for their parents.  Many of these folks are SUPing.  We are indeed a bit myopic here. We lean towards giving advice that is based on our lifestyles but that is not the norm for the SUP demographic as a whole.

goodfornothin

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #170 on: August 30, 2015, 08:08:43 PM »
I just came off wrong. I'm all.for what you are doing.  Just suggesting that wheels can spin but things can stay in place.  There is good info out there. Just get it into shops.
 And I offered a very safe option, waist leash. Not sure how im.distracting from anything. But I'll happily let you guys get er done. 

Waist leashhhhhhhhhhhh,,,by

PonoBill

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #171 on: August 30, 2015, 08:26:48 PM »
Not beating on you buddy, just pointing out that we're all doing what we're supposed to be doing. And yeah, I'm switching to waist leashes for everything.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Kaihoe

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #172 on: August 30, 2015, 08:44:00 PM »
Wow just caught up on this thread, some really good stuff in here. Just a couple of thoughts to throw into the pot.

 Entrapment has always been an issue with leashes.... remember Mark Foo? Even with this you only see kooks or gurus without a leash.

 The waist leash is a huge improvement. But still has issues, after going over the falls in a surf race I came to the finish and couldn't get it off.  The 'cuff' had spun around and the release was somewhere round my back.  It took long enough to figure that in a race situation. I'd hate to think what that would have been like underwater and running out of breath   

 

PonoBill

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #173 on: August 30, 2015, 09:41:21 PM »
I had the same problem so I came up with a belt that I sewed to my camelback vest pack (baja). Unless the camelback managed to wind up reversed (pretty much impossible with your arms still attached) the release is always there. Positive too, it releases a plain piece of strap and the leash has standard railsaver that goes over it. Simple as bricks. Doesn't need the railsaver, a plain loop would make more sense, but I just robbed one off an old leash. I'll shoot a picture later.

No good for surfing though. I'll figure something out for that. Maybe sew the buckle end of the belt to the Boardshorts. A snap or clip would work too.

I'm using a camlock buckle with a pull lanyard attached to the buckle. It's not ideal, it could be accidentally released. If someone has a better idea I'd be interested. I considered the kind of releases we use in race cars, but nah. Overkill.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 09:43:48 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

pdxmike

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #174 on: August 30, 2015, 10:27:33 PM »
Admin error!  My apologies Mike, I went to quote you and overwrote your post.  Kindly repost.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 09:21:49 AM by Admin »

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #175 on: August 31, 2015, 05:05:20 AM »
Wow just caught up on this thread, some really good stuff in here. Just a couple of thoughts to throw into the pot.

 Entrapment has always been an issue with leashes.... remember Mark Foo? Even with this you only see kooks or gurus without a leash.

 The waist leash is a huge improvement. But still has issues, after going over the falls in a surf race I came to the finish and couldn't get it off.  The 'cuff' had spun around and the release was somewhere round my back.  It took long enough to figure that in a race situation. I'd hate to think what that would have been like underwater and running out of breath
I use the belt from a kayak rescue tow line. It has an arrangement where the leash attaches to the belt in such a way that it prevents the belt from being pulled around when a load is applied. It attaches to the belt via a loop that changes the direction of the pull so there is pull in opposite directions at once. Hard to explain but easy to see how it works if I can get a picture. Anyway, the point is that this issue is solvable, especially if you also have a pin-release type arrangement at the rear of the belt as a failsafe.

These are design issues and it's about time that someone somewhere started making waist leashes specifically designed for SUP. They'd be money in it, as well as the warm glow of knowing that you'd saved some lives. Surely (maybe with PB's internet marketing know-how?) some enterprising person out there could take this on. If RSPro can capture the market in rail tape and make money out of it, somebody should be able to so the same for SUP leashes.

Gramps

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #176 on: August 31, 2015, 07:11:32 AM »

These are design issues and it's about time that someone somewhere started making waist leashes specifically designed for SUP. They'd be money in it, as well as the warm glow of knowing that you'd saved some lives. Surely (maybe with PB's internet marketing know-how?) some enterprising person out there could take this on. If RSPro can capture the market in rail tape and make money out of it, somebody should be able to so the same for SUP leashes.

I've never used either but are the NRS and Corran waist leashes not designed for SUP?  I assume they are aiming mainly at river SUP but why wouldn't they work in other situations?

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #177 on: August 31, 2015, 07:33:37 AM »
We have a couple of these.  They released well enough but are designed for use with twist resistant vests and they are a bit jangly.  There have been lots of kite issues where the on-harness (waist) release became inaccessible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MqWxTC5P8E
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 07:37:16 AM by Admin »

LaPerouseBay

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #178 on: August 31, 2015, 08:17:55 AM »

These are design issues and it's about time that someone somewhere started making waist leashes specifically designed for SUP. They'd be money in it, as well as the warm glow of knowing that you'd saved some lives. Surely (maybe with PB's internet marketing know-how?) some enterprising person out there could take this on. If RSPro can capture the market in rail tape and make money out of it, somebody should be able to so the same for SUP leashes.


https://www.northshoreinc.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=351&idcategory=86

I've had rear mounted quick release capability in my ski for years, but I had to fabricate it.  It's attached to the rear of the ski - much safer in surf. 

I revel in my dorky appearance.  I have one of these coming in February.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hydesportswear/the-wingman-the-first-life-jacket-youll-want-to-we

My current PFD is sun bleached white.  I hope this new one is color fast.  Time will tell.  I risked it on kickstarter because it's a great idea.  No need to ditch it if faced with a long swim...  I'll be wearing it on standup too. 

I clear my nose in the general direction of elite paddlers that don't promote safety for the less gifted.  That's what may have  killed Andres.   

Too soon?  Sorry.  My heart goes out to the profound loss for his family and friends.       
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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #179 on: August 31, 2015, 08:33:07 AM »
You don't want metal carabiners and suchlike in critical situations when downwinding or surfing. They have a nasty tendency to end up smacking you in the face, catching your fingers, or damaging your board or wetsuit, especially when re-mounting. Don't ask me how I know this...

The release ball looks a bit small on the river leash video. It needs to be big, and you (and anyone attempting to rescue you) need to be able to know exactly where it is within a second with your eyes closed and getting churned around underwater.

I think the ideal leash would probably have two release mechanisms, one front, one back, so that however a belt might get pulled around on your torso you'd always be able to reach one.

And it needs to be able to be worn without a pfd. Most of us in eg. Europe and other places around the world don't wear pfds most of the time, and hardly anyone does in surf, unless it is huge and/or freezing cold.

This is an interesting conversation in that it helps in appreciating the very specific issues that the different subdisciplines of SUP face.

 


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