Author Topic: Leash Use.  (Read 63784 times)

Easy Rider

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #135 on: August 29, 2015, 09:51:30 AM »
There has also been several deaths on open water inland lakes where the paddler wasn't wearing a leash, and one of these deaths occurred on lake Geneva in June of this year. It wasn't an entrapment death. We are kinda cherry picking this topic ad nauseam, pointing out specific causes of death to try and prove a point, but in the end it is more speculation than anything and from what I am reading on this forum, personal opinions in large part. We have already discussed that individuals have failed to deploy their inflatable PFDs when falling off their boards, and entrapment deaths might still occur without a leash and PFD when you are trapped under a barge, a house boat or a log or whatever.

The point remains to be informed and make a choice in having the most applicable safety gear for what the paddling situation warrants at that given point in time.

Agreed. 
While the cases of "leash entrapment" are truly horrific - I wonder what the statistics are for instances where leashes have saved a life?  I can't really find anything - as these situations are never reported. 
From customer comments this past week I know of several people that are safe and sound due to wearing a leash. 
Also to note - where I am from - northern Canada - cold water is the biggest issue we deal with in terms of safety.   Being able to quickly get back on your board is key for us here. 

Also - I am curious the number of entrapment tragedies that involved a straight (surf) leash vs. a coiled leash.   
All we sell here are coiled leashes.   Again - making sure that the leash or leash system that you are using is vitally important to the type of paddling you are doing.


Easy Rider is the name of my store in Edmonton, AB, Canada.
My name is Warren Currie . . . and we SUP Surf indoors . . . in a shopping mall!

TallDude

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #136 on: August 29, 2015, 10:25:26 AM »
I hate coiled leashes. I was surfing at Nuc's maybe 5 years ago during winter. It's a reef break so you're out there. I took the first set wave, and lost it somewhere along the line. I got rolled pretty good. When I came up my coiled leash had wrapped around my paddle shaft, and twisted into a knot. The real problem was my ankle was now twisted right  up against my paddle shaft. Guess what? Here comes mack'g wave 2 right on my head. I get rolled again, but my paddle is still strapped to my frick'n ankle, and my board is dragging me. Now I can feel the cold water temp cutting through my 2/3 wetsuit. I'm along way from shore, and trapped by my coil leash. I took 3 or 4 more on the head before I realized I had my paddle with a 2 piece shaft. I pulled the shaft apart and freed my ankle. When I got to back to the shore, that leash went straight into the trash can.
A few years later I was surfing on my nieces paddle board she had just picked up. It came with a coiled leash. The first time I fell, the leash wrapped around my paddle. I thought to myself " I hate coiled leashed!"
At the BOP last year, for some unknown reason I brought a coiled leash. I got hit by a ton of boards and rolled 'Jack-Ass' comedy. My leash when between my toes, under my foot, and around my ankle twice. I had to return to the beach to untie it. "I hate coiled leashes". Did I say that already???   
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PonoBill

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #137 on: August 29, 2015, 10:31:55 AM »
No easy answers, and that's a good reason to talk it out. I love a clean, clear message and "Leashes Save Lives" is exactly that, but it isn't one I'd want to give to that beautiful girl's father.

So it's time for a reset, and some careful thought. I want to help make this sport safer. I'm willing to work for that, and more than willing to step back and rethink an idea that is certainly elegant and to the point, but might have some very rough unintended consequences.
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thorn

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #138 on: August 29, 2015, 10:35:15 AM »
All PFDs come with that little booklet on choosing the right PFD for you - it outlines the different types and the pros and cons of each in simple layouts with simple graphics. Maybe a similar booklet could be designed and come with every leash...

robon

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #139 on: August 29, 2015, 10:44:01 AM »
Hey Warren,

I actually agree with the slogan in leashes save lives, but the sport in most parts of the world is still relatively young, and exceptions to the rule always occur and always will. For now, wearing the right gear for the presenting situation seems to quell the debate somewhat, and education is always prudent, but you bring up valid points that go far beyond cold water environments.

I was paddling off the coast of Victoria earlier this summer and was battling near OH conditions and got bucked off by some quartering swell trying to back to my start point that was several kilometres away. The water was warmer than I anticipated, but I definitely thought to myself what would have happened if I wasn't wearing a leash and my board got away? In that situation I might not have made it. I'm sure every single person on this thread that paddles distance or downwinds has been in COUNTLESS situations like this thinking, "shit I probably would have been f*cked without a leash". It has happened to me more than once in open water situations. Throw in the cold water environment and it becomes that much more important. The water on the lakes in my area doesn't freeze, but you are a dead man if you don't have a leash and fall off more than a few hundred feet from shore at certain times of the year and sometimes a PFD might not save you before hypothermia finishes the job. Of course this plays back to having the right equipment too such as a wetsuit at a bare minimum. Thing is we only hear about the accidents and mishaps regarding leashes and not the thousands and thousands of instances when they have, or likely have contributed to saving lives.

The same thing goes right back to the origins of seat belts, and even with advances in safety measures, seat belts sometimes still malfunction, and people still die or are severely injured as a result. Some panic and can't get the seat belt off in a submersion or accident scenario. Doesn't change the fact that seat belts save a hell of a lot more lives than not and there is not a sliver of doubt in my mind that the same is not true of leashes. Of course in certain scenarios leashes CAN be and ARE a hazard, but who is to say that some of these entrapment scenarios wouldn't still occur with a quick release waist leash or with no leash at all? People panic and somehow don't pull the conveniently located draw cord with inflatable PFDs and the drowning response may kill some individuals before help arrives as well.

Now it sounds like I have an agenda lol. With that said, it goes back to being appropriately prepared and educated for the areas and conditions we are entering as paddlers. Wether we champion a "leashes save lives" slogan or not is besides the point. However, I would not be surprised if this doesn't become a catch phrase in the near future. I'm willing to bet deaths caused by leashes are the rare exception, and not the norm. Once again, we hear about the entanglement scenarios more often than those cases where leashes helped or actually do save lives. Much more.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 10:47:06 AM by robon »

PonoBill

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #140 on: August 29, 2015, 10:50:07 AM »
Robon, you're absolutely right, and I agree with you and Warren completely, but I think that clear, simple, and elegant message just shouldn't be given, at least not in isolation.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

robon

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #141 on: August 29, 2015, 10:53:11 AM »
Robon, you're absolutely right, and I agree with you and Warren completely, but I think that clear, simple, and elegant message just shouldn't be given, at least not in isolation.

True enough.

Eagle

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #142 on: August 29, 2015, 11:27:10 AM »
Robon, you're absolutely right, and I agree with you and Warren completely, but I think that clear, simple, and elegant message just shouldn't be given, at least not in isolation.

^^^
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magentawave

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #143 on: August 29, 2015, 12:18:22 PM »
Last summer I did four raft trips in Montana with minor to fairly major rapids and I can understand how a regular leash dragging in the water could snag on rocks and junk and kill you if you didn't know what you were doing. The key, I think, would be a leash that never drags in the water because it goes from the leash plug to the ankle and then up to the waist where it attaches with something that would release quickly under pressure (Velcro??). Along with that should be a super easy to implement release at the ankle.

Sorry if this comes off sounding cold and callous, but as long as humans play in the water, there will be casualties, and no amount of hand-wringing or legislation is going to change that. However, businesses that rent sups should insist that their customers wear PFD's and perhaps the kind of leash I mentioned and then have them sign a waiver. I think the ideas being floated around for the businesses to VOLUNTARILY act on this BEFORE creepy self-serving politicians do is a great idea. It's going to cost them money so the key for persuading them is that their actions now will preempt legislation and lessen the possibility of being sued.

Of course none of that will do a bit of good for the Harry MacDoofus that's never or hardly ever been in the water and rents a sup for the afternoon to cruise down a river, falls off, snags the leash and then panics because Harry doesn't have rough water experience like the kind that the average sup surfer deals with every time they go surfing.
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pdxmike

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #144 on: August 29, 2015, 12:32:55 PM »
While the cases of "leash entrapment" are truly horrific - I wonder what the statistics are for instances where leashes have saved a life?  I can't really find anything - as these situations are never reported. 
There's really no way to know.  With the leash, you fall in, get back on the board and continue on.  Without it, assuming the lack of leash wouldn't make anyone more cautious, usually people would get back on their board.  Sometimes, the board would shoot away, then a buddy would grab it or you'd eventually swim to it.  A few times, you couldn't reach it and would swim to shore, or you'd tread water or float in your pfd until a boat came.  A few times, you'd drown...And there are very few instances where someone falling with a leash would ever notice any danger to the point they'd think, "Wow, if I hadn't had my leash I could've drowned".

Subber

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #145 on: August 29, 2015, 02:56:41 PM »
...Along with that should be a super easy to implement release at the ankle....

I had a leash entrapment/entanglement issue about 15 years - it really got my attention.
My leash got hooked a rock; I was in about 5 feet of water with waves going over my head.
It took several tries before I could get the leash off of my ankle.  I definitely could see the danger.

So, Now, whenever I get a new leash, I take a BIC lighter and singe about the first inch of Velcro
towards the release strap.  Also, if the little strap you are supposed to pull seems too short -
- doesn't give enough leverage to easily pull but the Velcro apart - I sew on an extension - usually an
inch or two.  I find these steps make it much easier to get the leash off your ankle....and it still
works like normal as far as staying attached when you wipe out.   I've only had a board get away once,
when the Velcro let loose; however, I'm fairly sure I hadn't really tightened it much in the first place. 
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PonoBill

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #146 on: August 29, 2015, 03:23:13 PM »
Won't work in current, you can't bend to get to it. Surprising how little current it takes. When my leash got trapped at Lanes I was just in the usual wave thrust and suck, but I couldn't reach my ankle. Believe me I was trying. It popped free from the rocks as I was running out of options. I was down about two feet from the surface. I started wearing calf leashes after that, but had them pull off a couple of times. Damned if you do...
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Area 10

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #147 on: August 29, 2015, 03:23:56 PM »
Yeah, I'm having a somber breakfast after reading that. I still get some kind of kick out of good marketing, but if something I helped with caused something like that my life would suck ever after.
As I've said before, waist leashes are the best in pretty much any situation. Ankle leashes with just a little tab to release them are a liability in many SUP situations. They have nearly killed me twice. You just can't get them off - or off quickly enough - when you are caught up in a critical situation.

We need waist leashes with big and easily accessible quick release mechanisms. I use one that is taken from a kayak rescue line, and it has a big floating ball attached to the buckle. As long as you can reach that and pull it, you should be able to get free quickly. It also works well for beach finishes in races - much quicker and easier to get off than eg. a knee leash. UKRiversurfers was making his own a long time ago because he foresaw these issues.

So, as I've said before, some of these tragic deaths could perhaps have been avoided by the use of a different design of leash. So maybe don't be quite so quick to give up on leashes altogether? We just need designs more appropriate for the application. The most currently used designs are amongst the most dangerous. And that is ridiculous.

There is definitely an entrepreneurial opportunity here...

SUP Sports ®

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #148 on: August 29, 2015, 03:27:05 PM »
The only leash that we have ever included for free with our boards over the last 10 years of selling SUPs has been the XM big wave rated leash with patented quick release pull loop...we feel that strongly about it...if they have even saved one life then it was worth it...

BTW, I started using them after I had a snag at "Shark's Reef" while prone surfing that held me under until I saw stars...

http://supsports.com/shop/gear/safety-leash/
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 03:29:12 PM by SUPsports »
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Easy Rider

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #149 on: August 29, 2015, 03:40:14 PM »
Those are great leashes Wardog . . . for your application. 

To further my point - these are the leashes we sell. 
Custom colored On A Mission coil leashes.   
They work exceptionally well for our conditions and use. 

It is all about choosing what works best for your individual set of circumstances - and educating yourself in its use.


Easy Rider is the name of my store in Edmonton, AB, Canada.
My name is Warren Currie . . . and we SUP Surf indoors . . . in a shopping mall!

 


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