Author Topic: Leash Use.  (Read 63522 times)

PonoBill

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #120 on: August 28, 2015, 05:52:11 PM »
As any good marketer would tell you, it's extremely hard to get a message across, and every word you add costs you audience and comprehension.

"Leashes Save Lives" is a fine title, and it's true. Yes, you could add a bunch of waffle words, but they don't make the statement more true. All that would be accomplished is to dilute the message. The caveats that BIC came up with--effective writing by the way--can and should be added. As subheads and copy. But clarity shouldn't suffer.

I've heard anecdotal examples of bicycle helmets causing traumatic head and neck injuries, even death. Google it. There's no such thing as a safety product without hazard. In truth, there's no such thing as safety. Doesn't mean bicycle manufacturers shouldn't encourage people to wear helmets.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #121 on: August 28, 2015, 06:09:35 PM »
The biggest "issue" I have with the pfd strapped to the . . . is that it totally creates a false sense of security. 

"Oh the rental place strapped a life jacket to my board, I must be safe then"   

This is what needs to change.

Absolutely.  From the SUP death in Lake Tahoe:

"Lyngar said because Campo borrowed the board he missed out on the safety talk from the rental company that would have gone over issues about the water temperature.

A life jacket was secured to the paddleboard with the leash that is supposed to be strapped to a paddler’s ankle."

http://www.laketahoenews.net/2013/08/bay-area-man-drowns-at-sand-harbor/

kjulks

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #122 on: August 28, 2015, 06:12:11 PM »
I've heard anecdotal examples of bicycle helmets causing traumatic head and neck injuries, even death. Google it. There's no such thing as a safety product without hazard. In truth, there's no such thing as safety. Doesn't mean bicycle manufacturers shouldn't encourage people to wear helmets.
Lemme put that part of it another way then. There's a principle in LEED building design and certification that says "Respect diversity". What they mean is don't expect to design a sustainable building for the Amazon that will also work in Siberia. Don't make a marketable statement the industry-wide mantra when it's 100% inappropriate in some situations.

I'm not talking about freak accidents. I'm talking about what could become, if it's not already, a statistically significant population of paddleboarders taking leashes out on rivers for recreation. Reducing the concept of risk management to nothing with "There's no such thing as a safety product without hazard. In truth, there's no such thing as safety" kills me. I know that. There's no guarantee that I won't fall out of my chair right now and die. But do me a favor and don't bring that up like it has any bearing on treating different SUP circumstances differently when it comes to appropriate use of safety equipment.

thorn

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #123 on: August 28, 2015, 07:10:21 PM »
Leashes and PFDs for those gomers all the time

completely OT but are you in medicine? Never seen anyone use the term gomer who hasn't read The House of God.

thorn

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #124 on: August 28, 2015, 07:12:29 PM »
However, what about if you have a spouse, or family?  What about what you could be potentially leaving behind?  For the ones that you care about that are left behind to deal with the aftermath like Andres Pombo's family has had to, how would you feel about that?  They have suffered threw a few false reports that he was found alive, and then had to suffer through waiting for his body to surface.  What if your body weren't found for weeks?

Yeah I have 4 kids. I want them to learn to love the outdoors, to try new things, to be active - but also I want them to learn by example to be safe and also know that I took as many steps as reasonably possible to keep myself safe on my adventures.

Area 10

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #125 on: August 29, 2015, 02:05:12 AM »
I've heard anecdotal examples of bicycle helmets causing traumatic head and neck injuries, even death. Google it. There's no such thing as a safety product without hazard. In truth, there's no such thing as safety. Doesn't mean bicycle manufacturers shouldn't encourage people to wear helmets.
Lemme put that part of it another way then. There's a principle in LEED building design and certification that says "Respect diversity". What they mean is don't expect to design a sustainable building for the Amazon that will also work in Siberia. Don't make a marketable statement the industry-wide mantra when it's 100% inappropriate in some situations.

I'm not talking about freak accidents. I'm talking about what could become, if it's not already, a statistically significant population of paddleboarders taking leashes out on rivers for recreation. Reducing the concept of risk management to nothing with "There's no such thing as a safety product without hazard. In truth, there's no such thing as safety" kills me. I know that. There's no guarantee that I won't fall out of my chair right now and die. But do me a favor and don't bring that up like it has any bearing on treating different SUP circumstances differently when it comes to appropriate use of safety equipment.
So, if your objection is just that "leashes saves lives" isn't always true, then why not suggest an alternative such as "Be leash aware" or "Be smart, be leash aware". In the same way that you argue that the only available options are not saying "leashes save lives" or doing nothing, I don't accept that the only alternative to "leashes save lives" is a page of complicated text.

You have a valid point, but criticism alone won't solve the problem we all want solving, which is that people are routinely risking their lives needlessly. So I'd welcome hearing some suggestions from you for alternative messages that get across the need to understand the importance of leashes as part of your potential life-saving equipment. It also needs to be simple enough to be effective.

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #126 on: August 29, 2015, 06:33:01 AM »
Here are links to two more SUP fatalities (both were again beginners) that were caused by entrapment:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/67613131/Familys-poignant-paddleboard-safety-plea

http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=27780.0

It seems that entrapment may be the leading cause of SUP fatalities.  To make an industry wide change i would first want that data.  Possibly Beware of entrapment would be the resulting line.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 06:53:21 AM by Admin »

Ichabod Spoonbill

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #127 on: August 29, 2015, 06:56:18 AM »
Admin, I hear your argument, but it seems like you're looking at the situation through a microscope. I'm not going to argue that leashes didn't cause those tragedies, but you may be missing the vast amount of times they prevented one. Perhaps better designed leashes are the answer?

The only time I ever got into real trouble on my SUP was when I had forgotten my leash. I fell in cold water and had to do a long swim while dangerous water was pouring into my wetsuit. (I shouldn't have had the wetsuit collar open either, but it was a warm day.) I'm not trying to continue the argument, only to say that your points are valid but they seem to be missing the bigger point.

If you don't like leashes (which I understand), is it right to argue against them when they protect in the vast number of cases? You'll probably say “Yes” but I want to point out what I'm seeing. Should we tell people not to wear a leash? Will most beginners understand the distinctions you as an expert are making?
Pau Hana 11' Big EZ Ricochet (Beluga)

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #128 on: August 29, 2015, 07:05:56 AM »
Hi IS,

I don't think anyone here is promoting any reduction in leash use (or PFD use, swimming lessons, game plans, whistles, helmets, cell phones or any successful safety tactics that are currently in use).  I certainly am not.  We are talking about making things better from the status quo in the best way possible.  That means reducing the types of incidents that are occurring without causing more.

As others have mentioned here we will not know what combination of current safety practices is leading to that status quo.  We can however try to better the situation and to do that we would need to understand the fatalities that actually are happening. 
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 07:44:54 AM by Admin »

Ichabod Spoonbill

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #129 on: August 29, 2015, 07:12:54 AM »
That's fine. I hope we can come to some sort of general idea of best practices.
Pau Hana 11' Big EZ Ricochet (Beluga)

PonoBill

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #130 on: August 29, 2015, 07:51:38 AM »
Holy shit, those links are pretty compelling, especially the first one. Horrific. Okay, I'm convinced, "leashes save lives" is not a good idea. Let's work on an alternative.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

standuped

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #131 on: August 29, 2015, 08:40:31 AM »
Here are links to two more SUP fatalities (both were again beginners) that were caused by entrapment:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/67613131/Familys-poignant-paddleboard-safety-plea

http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=27780.0

It seems that entrapment may be the leading cause of SUP fatalities.  To make an industry wide change i would first want that data.  Possibly Beware of entrapment would be the resulting line.

Wow, the NZ girl really set me way back.  Maybe more so than Andres.  I was pro leash prior to reading that.  Can't come up with a silver bullet slogan at the moment.

Russell said Amie - a strong swimmer who was wearing a life jacket at the time - was unable to release her leg strap, while he and others who dived to save her were also unable to undo it.

"The breakaway mechanism that caused our tragedy is just a bloody disaster. I couldn't break it away. She was stuck. We don't honestly know what she was caught on.


Canoes are well know to be the unsuspecting killers of the water craft world.  SUP I believe can very easily eclipse that if we don't all preach the safety...... preach the safety.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 08:42:47 AM by standuped »
Florida gear.. Bic 12'x31"~207L.. JP Fusion 10'8"x34"~190L..Angulo custom 9'6"x33"~160L.. SIC Fish 9'5"x29.6"~145L..Epic gear elite paddle~7"x75"..Oregon gear..JP Fusion#2..Foote Triton 10'4"x34"~174L.. Surftec Generator 10'6"x32.3"~167L..Kialoa Pipes 6 3/8"x75"...Me 6'1" 220 lbs circa 1959

PonoBill

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #132 on: August 29, 2015, 08:46:38 AM »
Yeah, I'm having a somber breakfast after reading that. I still get some kind of kick out of good marketing, but if something I helped with caused something like that my life would suck ever after.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

robon

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #133 on: August 29, 2015, 08:52:06 AM »
There has also been several deaths on open water inland lakes where the paddler wasn't wearing a leash, and one of these deaths occurred on lake Geneva in June of this year. It wasn't an entrapment death. We are kinda cherry picking this topic ad nauseam, pointing out specific causes of death to try and prove a point, but in the end it is more speculation than anything and from what I am reading on this forum, personal opinions in large part. We have already discussed that individuals have failed to deploy their inflatable PFDs when falling off their boards, and entrapment deaths might still occur without a leash and PFD when you are trapped under a barge, a house boat or a log or whatever.

The point remains to be informed and make a choice in having the most applicable safety gear for what the paddling situation warrants at that given point in time.

Chan

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Re: Leash Use.
« Reply #134 on: August 29, 2015, 09:05:15 AM »
I've tried to read thru this entire thread to make sure I'm not saying something already said.  Of course safety should be a high priority, and yes sometimes what you think should save you, might in some circumstances be what kills you.  I think it comes down to using your head, maybe practicing a few things to make sure you have your plan for if things go bad, etc.  Granted, we can't plan for everything, but there is a reason why police and firemen train and practice.  Anyway, my only additional thought on this huge issue is what each person might want to consider when they head out for a paddle.  You might be a true waterman, super healthy, super experienced, etc and it is your choice about your safety gear.  And, if you die because you didn't use it, or died because you did but you ran into what Pono Bill described in another thread "a perfect storm", it is your choice.  However, what about if you have a spouse, or family?  What about what you could be potentially leaving behind?  For the ones that you care about that are left behind to deal with the aftermath like Andres Pombo's family has had to, how would you feel about that?  They have suffered threw a few false reports that he was found alive, and then had to suffer through waiting for his body to surface.  What if your body weren't found for weeks?  I'm not sure how life insurance works on the payout, but what if your family wasn't in the best of financial shape and now needed the money from your policy, but they have to wait because your body hasn't been found.  Again, I don't know if that could happen, but I'm just bringing it up.  Sometimes, it not just you that is affected by your choices, it's also the ones that you love.  Andres's family needed the help of many to get out there and deal with bringing him back home.  Would you want your loved ones to suffer like that?  Not trying be sound all high and mightly, it's just another thing to maybe think about when you make your choices.

Hi Weeble,

I agree, Andres' family's loss is heart wrenching.  I am so sorry for their loss.  As a mom, I would want answers.  In fact that's a lot of what I'm feeling from this discussion.  People want to take action.  We want this not to have happened.  We don't want it to happen again. 

We do open water swim and have swam the Columbia.  I wouldn't want to risk my safety or the safety of any rescue personnel but I am certain I can comfortably swim that water in the conditions I swim in.  However, this incident has prompted me to reconsider the hidden risk of entanglement.   Nets, particularly lost and damaged nets, have become an increasing hazard.  A regular downwinder from Viento to Hood River passes by/over many net locations.  I'm ready to starfish or ball up if I get bucked but it's a growing concern.  The tribal council have treaty rights to net these waters and they have posted safety warnings explaining the risks. 

I mention all of this because I can't get it out of mind that this may have been a factor.  I wouldn't want people harboring unnecessary residual guilt. 

Here is a photo of what we regularly encounter:


Additional information:

http://www.critfc.org/for-kids-home/public-resources/river-safety/




   
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 09:07:00 AM by Chan »

 


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