Leash Use.

[Admin]

Its a discussion.  The Oregon leash deaths that have occurred were not in whitewater.  They were in relatively slow moving river water and they were beginners.  All of Oregon's 4 deaths have been in rivers.  The majority of SUP deaths have been in rivers.  This should not be ignored.

[robon]

I'm certainly not arguing a mandated rule for leashes in whitewater. As mentioned, it's a discussion. In my area, quite a few paddleboarders are trying whitewater now because whitewater is so accessible, but it is dangerous. I tried the quick release system on a PFD a few times now and like it. It seems comfortable and easy to use but that's where it ends. I have no agenda. A few paddlers aren't using a leash in whitewater and just grab their board and paddle when they go down or rely on others to get the board if they lose it and that works alright. This is more about knowing what you are getting into and choosing the appropriate gear for the situation, and experienced paddlers can help as can business owners.

River safety definitely shouldn't be ignored because more things can go wrong on even slow moving river systems.

[PonoBill]

Better to argue things out here than when you actually need to get things done. Death by committee happens aas a project moves from theorizing towards the implementation point, where every person added to the mix makes results less likely.

To that end, it's not just whitewater that kills people when leashes get tangled. It's moving water. Drifting lazily down a river moving at 1 mph turns really nasty if you leash snags a rootball. Sounds bizarre but it's really hard to bend enough to release the leash in just a 1mph current. But most people don't even try--they just start flailing, and then quickly transition to the Instinctive Drowning Response, which is counter-productive to survival and very passive: http://www.xgeez.com/2011/06/drowing-doesnt-look-like-drowning/

Leads me to wonder why all flatwater leashes aren't just belt leashes with a big quick release. No real reason for that leg strap in a non-surf application. I generally attach my downwinder leash to my Camelbak--not really quick release, but I like keeping the leash out of the water.  And actually I've come to appreciate waist leashes in big surf--they don't pull you under. I've never used a leash in Whitewater. I always go with folks that are way better at it than me (except Admin and Chan, who fall almost as much as I do) and they catch my board for me usually. Though I have gone through more than a few rapids bobbing like a black rubber duck. I'll try a waist leash next time I get stupid enough to go.

I know that's a digression, but it's worth talking about in THIS group. I'm going to talk to the Dakine folks here in the Gorge about it after I hear from the rest of you.

In the meantime Warren, I'd like to start helping you with your effort. If you'd like I'll set up a "Leashes Save Lives" website. PM me with your thoughts.

I'm also working on a script for a SUP the Gorge safety video. Off-shore, I'll send you the first draft when I'm done. I'm going to ask Rod Parmenter to shoot it for us.  He's one hell of a good videographer.

[kjulks]

We can't really teach people how to drive a car safely. "Seat belts save lives unless they jam and you burn to death". Not a great safety slogan. Airbags required even though they snap the neck of anyone a little too small or sitting a little too close.

Yeah, but let's not use improper analogies. We're not talking about malfunctioning equipment. And in the case of "too small or sitting too close", there was a massive public safety effort to educate the populace about car seats, keeping your kid in the back until a certain weight, etc. With some coordination people CAN be taught how to handle variables to maximize safety.

So please stop arguing about "rights being taken away" or "sometimes leashes can kill you" - - and lets just get the message across and educate people that Leashes do in fact save lives!

I'm not arguing to take anything away from your message. I appreciate your efforts and your dedication to safety. What I'm saying is that they absolutely do until they don't. Please don't take personal offense to attempts to help clarify a murky subject.

It seems like this whole conversation was brought about as a result of Andres' death, yet we're all now citing that those types of circumstances aren't going to be the type of situation targeted by this kind of effort. Please keep separation of the two in mind, then. If we're targeting beginners, we must be taking a thoughtful approach to keeping them safe. If the message is "Leashes would have saved Andres' life", then own up to that. It's probably true. But calling for an industry-wide campaign to put forth a blanket statement that isn't patently true and that could actually lead to accidents is a mistake.

I'm sorry if that seems callous, but safety protocols can't be born from an emotional reaction.

[Eagle]

A pamphlet noting something like this seems to make a lot sense and can be distributed at time of rent or purchase.  Also the current local regulations for ROW and PFD use should be given out so that the consumer is made aware at the counter.

Unfortunately education and regulation are no guarantee that paddlers will comply anyways.  Common sense and knowing your equipment and how to use it is more important than an inflatable PFD that has a canister not checked and defective -> or a leash that will break or not hold because of old weak velco.

Education and knowledge of dangers is very useful to us - ex DJ's photos and videos noting the risks not using a leash in windy situations -> and news reports reflecting the dangers of SUP in any environment.  Knowledge of the pros and cons is key - "appropriate education is crucial".

[PonoBill]

I don't think there's anything improper about the analogy. You cite a massive public safety effort to educate people about using car seats and keeping kids in the back seat. Note the word "massive". Is that what you expect? More to the point is that airbags represent a clear hazard and yet the tradeoff is considered satisfactory. Even discounting the Takata airbags there is good evidence that airbags are a flawed solution when they work properly.  What we are talking about here is the same thing--a safety solution that could have a negative safety effect. The challenge in analyzing the solution is that if it works a million times to save someone's life that will not be reported, whereas if it drowns two people by entanglement it will.

For example, I do at least 150 downwinders a year, and probably fall an average of three times (yeah, I know). So 450 lifesaving events (possibly) and none reported. The few incidents I remember and talk about is when the leash didn't work--broke or slipped off.  What kind of analysis of risk vs. benefit is available from that data? None that bears real statistical scrutiny--two many assumptions. Does that mean I should be doing something different?

Really, neither analogy requires malfunction. People in a panic don't unbuckle their seat belt. They just struggle. Saw that firsthand when I stopped to help in a traffic accident. One of the drivers was struggling in her car--full panic. Couldn't get out, clawing at the window and jerking on the doorhandle with no more rationality than a trapped raccoon. I banged on her window right in front of her face and startled her. When she recoiled, I put my face up close and pointed to the door lock. She unlocked it. I reached across and undid her fully functioning seatbelt and got her out of the car.

Here's something a little more relevant that bears consideration, from the Drowning doesn't Look Like Drowning article:
"Throughout the IDR (Instinctive Drowning Response), drowning people cannot voluntarily control their arm movements. Physiologically, drowning people who are struggling on the surface of the water cannot stop drowning and perform voluntary movements such as waving for help, moving toward a rescuer, or reaching out for a piece of rescue equipment.

From beginning to end of the IDR people’s bodies remain upright in the water, with no evidence of a supporting kick. Unless rescued by a trained lifeguard, these drowning people can only struggle on the surface of the water from 20 to 60 seconds before submersion occurs”.

I've seen this firsthand. pulling people out of the ocean in Manzanita. It explains why PFDs don't get inflated, and why leash entanglement victims don't release their leash.

Yes, education is an important part of this effort, but anyone experienced with a SUP can certainly understand that a lot fewer people will drown if their board is right there, ready for them to crawl back onto. They won't go into that panic. Will there be useful statistics to make that assessment? NO.

[Eagle]

Yes, education is an important part of this effort, but anyone experienced with a SUP can certainly understand that a lot fewer people will drown if their board is right there, ready for them to crawl back onto. They won't go into that panic.

There is no convincing us that leashing up is important as we have noted that many times.  We always wear a leash for our purposes.  It seems the knowledge that at certain times there are risks one should also be aware of that is important.

We have been tangled even on a DW when a board flips a few times.  Luckily we have a QR so that does help.  For the majority -> obviously they should wear a leash.

[kjulks]

What we are talking about here is the same thing--a safety solution that could have a negative safety effect. The challenge in analyzing the solution is that if it works a million times to save someone's life that will not be reported, whereas if it drowns two people by entanglement it will. ... Will there be useful statistics to make that assessment? NO.

You're right about that. I thought you were trying to say that a seatbelt jamming and keeping someone stuck in a car that could ignite- a case of malfunctioning equipment - was somehow akin to a misapplication of a safety device. That's where it becomes an inappropriate comparison for me.

But forget the debate team BS, I'm not trying to win arguments. I'm trying to clarify that those potential negative effects could be minimized by taking a more nuanced approach to the message and educational efforts. "Airbags save lives" without the educational piece about sitting too close, being too small is an oversight and not acceptable. Similarly, I'd say "Leashes save lives" without the education piece about moving water, being able to get out of the leash is an oversight and unacceptably simplistic.

[PonoBill]

Okay then, we're in violent agreement.

Yeah, the only thing wrong with a belt leash is that I have managed to turn myself into leash macrame a few times. Fortunately I'm more inclined to laugh about it than panic.

[Admin]

Some of the board and leash companies have a different type of message attached to their products.  I think a great measure of care is required when you say what a product will and will not do.

From Bic:

Warning on use of leash:
The leash is not a life-safety device and is intended for convenience purposes only. It is not intended to compensate for deficient surfing and swimming ability, ocean knowledge, safety precautions, or general common sense. We assume no liability for any damage or injury to you or others caused by use, misuse, or inability to use this product.
 
WARNING :
To use this product with maximum security please read and follow these simple instructions :
- Never grab or wrap the leash around your hand to recover the surfboard : the force of a wave may cause serious damage to your hand or fingers, even amputation in the worst cases.
- A SUP leash can become stuck on objects under the water, particularly when surfing reef or rock breaks. To reduce the risk of drowning, before going surfing with this leash you must train to use the quick release pull tab on the velcro ankle or knee bracelet.
- SUP leashes are NOT intended for use in rivers with current or whitewater rapids. They should not be used in these conditions unless used in conjunction with a PFD quick release sytem AND the appropriate training by a river professional.

[Eagle]

Okay then, we're in violent agreement.

Yeah, the only thing wrong with a belt leash is that I have managed to turn myself into leash macrame a few times. Fortunately I'm more inclined to laugh about it than panic.

 

[pdxmike]

I'm taking my car in Monday for airbag replacement recall work.  Apparently my type of airbags have killed several people by shooting shrapnel when they deploy. 

[Area 10]

Pretty much the best leash for ANY SUP activity is a waist-mounted one with a quick release system.

And what is the LEAST used leash system? A waist-mounted QR one.

Go figure. Vanity? Lack of education? Lack of imagination? Fear of the unknown?

Many of the objections that one might raise about leash use disappear if the designs were more appropriate to the situation (river, surf, BOP-type race etc).

So this is largely a design issue rather than one of principle.

And it is an opportunity for manufacturers to start selling us as many different types of leash as they do boards...

Show them this marketing opportunity and then let them do the advertising for you. In no time it will be cool to wear a waist-mounted leash, and a generation will grow up doing so. Job done.

And if you are one of the few here who find it hard to agree with the statement "leashes save lives", would you similarly object to the statement "wearing the correct leash saves lives"?

[robon]

Pretty much the best leash for ANY SUP activity is a waist-mounted one with a quick release system.

And what is the LEAST used leash system? A waist-mounted QR one.

Go figure. Vanity? Lack of education? Lack of imagination? Fear of the unknown?

Many of the objections that one might raise about leash use disappear if the designs were more appropriate to the situation (river, surf, BOP-type race etc).

So this is largely a design issue rather than one of principle.

And it is an opportunity for manufacturers to start selling us as many different types of leash as they do boards...

Show them this marketing opportunity and then let them do the advertising for you. In no time it will be cool to wear a waist-mounted leash, and a generation will grow up doing so. Job done.

And if you are one of the few here who find it hard to agree with the statement "leashes save lives", would you similarly object to the statement "wearing the correct leash saves lives"?

A waist leash quick release is probably the least used because it is the most expensive option for leashes and many people simply don't know about them yet. Many people inland don't even know about calf leashes, let alone quick release waist leashes so give it time. I don't have a waist leash, but want one. Truth is, I don't like anything on my waist or back when paddling, but have done the quick release on my PFD every time I have gone white water paddling. It makes sense to have a waist leash and it will catch on in time.

[Weeble]

I've tried to read thru this entire thread to make sure I'm not saying something already said.  Of course safety should be a high priority, and yes sometimes what you think should save you, might in some circumstances be what kills you.  I think it comes down to using your head, maybe practicing a few things to make sure you have your plan for if things go bad, etc.  Granted, we can't plan for everything, but there is a reason why police and firemen train and practice.  Anyway, my only additional thought on this huge issue is what each person might want to consider when they head out for a paddle.  You might be a true waterman, super healthy, super experienced, etc and it is your choice about your safety gear.  And, if you die because you didn't use it, or died because you did but you ran into what Pono Bill described in another thread "a perfect storm", it is your choice.  However, what about if you have a spouse, or family?  What about what you could be potentially leaving behind?  For the ones that you care about that are left behind to deal with the aftermath like Andres Pombo's family has had to, how would you feel about that?  They have suffered threw a few false reports that he was found alive, and then had to suffer through waiting for his body to surface.  What if your body weren't found for weeks?  I'm not sure how life insurance works on the payout, but what if your family wasn't in the best of financial shape and now needed the money from your policy, but they have to wait because your body hasn't been found.  Again, I don't know if that could happen, but I'm just bringing it up.  Sometimes, it not just you that is affected by your choices, it's also the ones that you love.  Andres's family needed the help of many to get out there and deal with bringing him back home.  Would you want your loved ones to suffer like that?  Not trying be sound all high and mightly, it's just another thing to maybe think about when you make your choices.