Author Topic: First days on new Sunova Speeed 8'10"  (Read 7802 times)

nalu-sup

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First days on new Sunova Speeed 8'10"
« on: July 31, 2015, 04:50:55 PM »
Now that I have about 8 sessions on my new Sunova Speeed 8'10", I thought that it was time to post my first impressions.
Quick stats: Started wave supping about six weeks ago on a Fanatic AllWave 8'11", but have surfed for 50+ years and wavesailed for 30+ years. During the summer months, I am on the ocean on one craft or another for 4 to 8 hours a day. 64 yrs old and 165 lbs (75 kilos). This time of year is mostly small reef breaks, knee to shoulder high.
First credit where its due: Jim K at Extreme Windsurfing who hosts this site was fantastic about getting this board to me. There were a few logistical challenges, and Jim handled all of them for me, getting the board delivered in great time and at a great price. I highly recommend working with him. Also the guys at Sunova were great about helping out with some details.
Now for a long review for when you have the time and are bored:
Board finish: Fantastic. Very refined construction finish, sharp looking, very light, and great details like goretex vent plug, windsurf mast track, liftsup handle (love the ability to pick the board straight up with one hand, and then later have the handle disappear without a hole), and well reinforced boxes. I don't know if it was by accident, but the strips of balsa on my board were actually lined up by slight color variation on the front of the board, which shows some caring craftsmanship.
Stability: This board is 130 liters, and my previous boards I had ridden were all 150 to 160, thought today I swapped with a 137 liter Starboard Converse for comparison. This board is right at my skill limit. If the waves are calm and glassy, I am in good shape, and can paddle around and stand still with no problems. The wide nose is a great source of stability, especially when the board is moving forward. Early this morning there was a lot of small crossed up rolling wind chop from a wind line outside the break, and I was struggling constantly, and in the water every couple of minutes. At least as of now, it is confirming my previous experience on different surf craft when it comes to stability and rail thickness (which does disagree with Bert Burgers position). I do believe that boxier rails provide more stationary stability, since when the board starts to tip, the thicker rail begins to submerge, and wants to push back up to level the board. Thinner rails sink easier, and therefore make it easier to tip up on edge; great when on a wave, not so great when trying to stand still and balance. Argument was made by Bert that thinner rails are actually more stable because they are trapped under a layer of water. I am not sure about this in calm water, but I know it is a problem with rolling cross surge. When the cross surge comes over the top of the rail, it sucks it down tipping the board hard over to one side. My wife was surfing next to me this morning, and commented that she could actually see the cross surge sucking the thinner rail under. I have found this to be true on other surf craft as well. As a comparison today I swapped onto a Starboard Converse which was 137 liters at 9.0 and 30 wide. The biggest difference was the rail profile, and the Converse was way more stable. Bottom line, the Speeed has great stability in calm water, but the thinner rails create challenges for me in cross surge.
Pivot turns: Awesome, because the tail is narrow compared to the rest of the board, a short step back, and the tail sinks easily for a quick pivot onto a wave.
Catching waves: Fantastic (assuming that there are not cross rollers). The wide nose causes the board to plane up very quickly. It is super stable up on the nose if you need to hop up there to pull into a wave. There is plenty of nose scoop for late critical takeoffs. This board will easily catch anything from a tiny rolling swell to a pitching lip.
Speed down the line: Like the name says; Speeed! Great fun to trim up high right under a pealing lip, and off to the races. I have made it across some sections that I never guessed that I was going to make.
Bottom turns: I am still figuring this one out. On all of the other SUP boards that I have ridden up to this point, my bottom turns have been very consistent for each particular board. For better or worse, I consistently replicate a similar bottom turn. On the Speeed, I am creating a huge range of bottom turns from horrid (ending up falling on my face), to jaw dropping awesome as the board accelerates up to the lip on steroids. Changing the fins has helped me. I switched from 3D 7s (4 ¾ thrusters and 4 ½ trailer), to Sunova 105s (5") thrusters, and added a tiny 3 ½" trailing fin. This gave both more drive, and more looseness. I think that my challenges have to do with the boards highly varied outline. Most of the rail line is very straight for speed down the line, and if I try to turn the board off that part of the rail because the wave is too small or slow to encourage stepping way back, then the board does not want to turn as tight as I expect, and I end up with my body overcommitted into the turn. If the wave has enough juice to allow my rear foot to find the "hip" in the outline, then the outline/thrusters/channels all work together to create a sweet tight turn with amazing acceleration. I am only finding this sweet spot about one wave out of four at this point, but it is sure sweet when I do. I would love any advice on this one.
Cutbacks: If I remember to really move my rear foot from one side to the other, the turns flow is sweetly. This board punishes attempts to turn it flat; it wants to be up on rail to perform.
Whitewater: This was a pleasant surprise, and a huge benefit of the thinner rails. When I am traversing a closed out section trying to get around to a clean wall, thicker rails like on the Allwave really get battered from the side by the whitewater, making it a challenge to stay in balance. The thinner rails of the Speeed allow the whitewater to just wash over the rails and deck of the board, leaving a very stable ride; cool.
Backside: Another big surprise. On all the other SUPs, I sucked backside. I just kind of wandered down the line, with slow wobbly turns. Normally frontside is where I do best. However on the Speeed, every backside bottom turn is sweet every time. My rear heel just seems to find the right spot (unlike frontside), and the board makes a sweet accelerating  turn. Cutbacks and roundhouses also seem easier than frontside, which is really not normal for me. Anyway, I am now enjoying taking lefts, instead of paddling my brains out to get over to a right even if its going to close out on my head.
Paddling out: There is one difference here that might take some minor adjustments. On boards with pointier noses, the nose parts the lip or whitewater on the way out, and may go through it or up and over. The wide nose on the Speeed, combined with the substantial nose kick, means that when it encounters something, it wants to go up and over, not through. This can be a good thing, but it also means that you need to be prepared for that nose to pop up at you very fast. Someone once suggested not stepping back as far on this board, and I think I would agree, since it is not necessary to lift the nose as much to get it to go up and over.

Thats it for now. I have a lot to learn on this board, and am learning more every session. At this point changing to larger thrusters and a smaller trailing fin really seemed to help, but I would love input on that or anything else anyone would like to share.
8'7" Sunova Flow 
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SUPladomi

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Re: First days on new Sunova Speeed 8'10"
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2015, 06:18:16 PM »
Thanks for the write up. Curious to know if you have had the chance to supsail it yet?

supthecreek

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Re: First days on new Sunova Speeed 8'10"
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2015, 07:51:46 PM »
Nalu.. glad you are stoked on the Speeed..... its easy to love this board1

As to your question on turns in smaller waves.... I find it easy to use the tail in all size waves, it likes to rock and roll with one foot on the stomper..... even in tiny waves, the Speeed will work well from the tail. I have some early Speeed vids showing how well it works in tiny waves... in fact that is one of the features I like best.... it flows so nicely even on mush.... then just keeps getting better as the waves get steeper and faster.

nalu-sup

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Re: First days on new Sunova Speeed 8'10"
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2015, 10:07:49 PM »
Hi SUPladomi,
Yes, I did wavesail it one day, and had a blast. Wavesailing has been my main focus for 30 years, so I have wave boards at 72, 78, 84, 92, and 100 liters; but when the wind was between 6 and 12, I was stuck. Too much wind for perfect surfing, and not enough wind for even my 100 liter, so a big part of any SUP board for me is the ability to wavesail it. So far I have sailed the Fanatic AllWAve 8'11", the JP Fusion around 9'3"(?), and the old Starboard Extreme; all around 150 liters. No surprise, the Speeed way outperforms all of these. It is a little tippier than the others, but that is not a problem with a sail. It pumps onto a wave ridiculously easy, usually just one or two pumps. If you get your rear foot right on the "hip" in the outline, and really move your foot all the way from one rail to the other and not just leave it in one place like on a smaller wave board, the Speed is perfectly capable of coming vertically right off the lip time after time. It loved to smack the white water at the edge of a close out section. It delights in turning on the wave face, but will also allow you to use your extra speed from the sail to carry speed out in front of the wave before cranking a turn back up to the lip. I found that this is a weak spot in sailing all of the other SUPs that I tried; the moment you tried to carry speed out in front of the wave, they just plowed to almost a stop. The wide nose pops up easily over walls of whitewater. The mast track is easy to use and perfectly positioned. It is easy to uphaul for a young body, and a bit more challenging than the other SUPs for me to uphaul with all my busted up body parts. The hull is way more anxious to plane than any of the others that I tried, partly because there is not quite as much kick in the tail rocker, along with the lightness. Though if the wind is planable, I would go get one of my regular wave boards. The one minor detail that holds it back slightly for windsupping is the fin arrangement. Toed in fins really need to be up on edge all the time so that one fin is always released out of the water. Anytime both thruster fins are moving through the water, it is like a skier doing a snowplow creating huge drag. Add to that single foiled fins with one flat side, and you have continuous double fin stall with detached turbulent flow around the flat side of both fins. You can really feel this drag when the board tries to get up and planing, which is why some brands with a windsurfing heritage often put parallel thruster boxes on their SUP boards with mast attachments. The board design of the Speeed really wants to plane fast, but the toed in fin drag holds it back somewhat. I am hoping to alleviate some of this by putting in double foiled thrusters with a thick enough foil that the water might be able to attach along that inside surface, and thereby get rid of most of the turbulent stall and drag. Again, this is not a huge deal, since I will normally only wavesail this board in sub-planing conditions, so the fin drag is not really noticeable or relevant. One last note on fins is that many guys like to go to either a single fin or a 2+1 for winsupping, and that is not really an option on this board because of the FCS X2 fin tab inserts that would not support a fin over six inches, and for that reason I don't think they are available for that base in larger sizes. Again, not a big deal because the thruster fin arrangement works great on the wave and sub-planing. I did pick up a set of 5 ½" thrusters that I am going to try next time I wavesail the Speeed, since with a sail, it was easy to overpower the 4 ¾"s that I had in last time.
One piece of advice for wavesailing an SUP; don't go big on sail size, since the extra power just seems to fight the board on the wave rather than help it. If the wind gets too light for my 100 liter waveboard with a 5.9 sail, I will to to the Speeed with a 5.3 sail.
Bottom line, I had a blast wavesailing the Speeed, and look forward to doing more of it.
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SCruzSUPr

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Re: First days on new Sunova Speeed 8'10"
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2015, 10:12:46 PM »
STCreek

+1 on Speeed small wave performance.  Easy, maneuverable, fast, fun on small stuff.  My only complaint is that with 5-6' swell, it ran out from underneath me again and again.  One of my compadres reminded me that's not a problem... just a challenge for me, to surf as well as my board can.

10' x 32"        Bill Foote  Triton
9'5" x 31"       Sunova Speeed
11'2" x 32"     Bill Foote 'Geezer Sled'

nalu-sup

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Re: First days on new Sunova Speeed 8'10"
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2015, 11:22:30 PM »
STC-- I am hoping that you can give me a clearer picture on something. I have studied all of your videos on the Speeed at least 100 times each (as well as that video of the 8'5"), which is one of the factors that lead me to get the board. When I attempt to look closely, it looks like your rear foot is right over the "hip" in the outline over the thruster fins, or just ahead of that. The hip over the thruster and channel is what I have been shooting for as the turning point for my rear foot. When you and others say that your rear foot is "on the stomper", that confuses me because that is a foot further back behind the hip. I know this seems like a nitpick detail, but could you clarify whether your foot is over the pivot point of the outline at the hip, or behind that where the stomper sits at the end of the tail. When I step back on the stomper, the board tends to banana peal out from under me like SCruzSUPr describes.

SCRuzSUPr-- I have experienced that same thing on the few 5'+ waves that I have dropped in on so far. If I tried to turn off the hips or tail, the board shot out ahead of me. If I drove forward and tried to set the whole rail, the turn gets pretty stiff and long. My only guess is that I don't have enough weight to really sink the rail back in those wide hips when the board generates that much speed. I was hoping that the pulled in tail behind the hips would address my lighter weight on bigger waves, but since the wide hips are the turning point, that idea might not work out. I was hoping that the bigger 5" thrusters that I just put in might give me more grip off the bottom, since most all of the rail is out of the water on a good sized wave at that point. Just an idea that I want to try. I know that on my 100 liter windsurf board, if I drop in on anything much over 12 feet, I don't have enough weight to set the rail, so I have to lay the sail down towards the water on the inside of the turn to use its weight and drive to help set the rail. If I don't do this, the board shoots out just like we are experiencing on the Speeed. Maybe worth noting that I did not have this problem when I was wavesailing the Speeed, since I had the extra weight of the sail, and it really helped if I pulled down on the booms as hard as I could to help set the rail.
Curious to see STCs thoughts on this, but I think that his extra weight power might make this a non-issue for him.
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SUPladomi

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Re: First days on new Sunova Speeed 8'10"
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2015, 12:39:06 AM »
Wow thanks, crazy thorough reply! Very intriguing as I've experienced the same limitations as you have regarding supsail boards. The mast track on the speed seems very short. Think you could get a Chinook 2 bolt in there?

If it only took you 6 weeks to go from the 8'11 AW to the 8'10 speed, I have a feeling you will be eyeing the 8'8 real soon! It might be a better fit at your weight,  helping to engage the rail more on your turns since like you said you are giving up 50 lbs (and power) to STC.

You've been wavesailing a long time and you have a 5 board quiver for waves! Where do you sail?

nalu-sup

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Re: First days on new Sunova Speeed 8'10"
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2015, 11:04:11 AM »
We live on Maui where I teach high level windsurfing. I am sailing either at Kanaha or Sprecks most days.
I am pretty sure that you could not get a two bolt base in that track. It does give an inch or so of adjustment range, but I think that they primarily used the short track to get better attachment to the board, which I do think is a great idea compared to the single screw in attachment seen on most SUPs.
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Tom

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Re: First days on new Sunova Speeed 8'10"
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2015, 12:31:09 PM »
When  you  windsurf  the  speed ,  do  you  worry  about  the  mast  may  damage  the  board ?  I know  the  board  is  well  built  for  a  surfboard ,  but  is  it  tough  enough  for  windsurfing ?

supthecreek

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Re: First days on new Sunova Speeed 8'10"
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2015, 03:13:38 PM »
Nalu, you are correct, when I surf frontside, my back foot does not go onto the stomper.... just behind the bump on the rail.
I was just generalizing that I surf the back end in small waves and it turns with those nice little carves

baddog

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Re: First days on new Sunova Speeed 8'10"
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2015, 10:45:31 PM »
nala-sup, the 'running out from under you' that SCruzSUPr describes and your "banana peel" is part of the trade off of surfing on a high volume SUP board.  When you choose extra stability over a more optimal volume, it's easy to get that runaway train experience.  I'm just about your weight, I'm on the 8'5" and I still get that out of control feeling.  STC outweights us by -40lb and you right that his weight is clearly an asset in controlling the 8'10"'s volume.  Not to mention STC has serious skills and has made the commitment to surf on optimal volume equipment.

Yes, the Speeed is speedy, but the low volume, narrow channeled tail can also help you reign it in by throwing turns and stalling if need be.  I think the other thing that really good SUP surfers do is use their paddle to maintain control.  You and I are both pretty new to SUP surfing; just part of the learning curve.

As to Burt being wrong, never!  Well, maybe, but for sure he was referring to paddling stability and not standing stationary in the water.  I actually spent some time watching how water flowed over my rails and tail and figured Burt probably does know what he's talking about.

nalu-sup

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Re: First days on new Sunova Speeed 8'10"
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2015, 11:43:44 PM »
Tom:
You are wise to be concerned about durability for wavesailing a SUP. I did go down once that first day, and was caught for a full set of six overhead waves in the impact zone over a shallow reef because there was not enough wind to waterstart, and not enough time between waves to uphaul. Because the boards are so big compared to a windsurf board, I kept thinking about how the rails had to be taking a beating from the mast each time a wave grabbed the board and took us for a couple of somersaults through the rinse cycle. After inspection, their was only one very fine spider web line in the glass from a mast impact, but nothing close to breaking through after at least six really hard hits. I think for waves under head high, the great construction on this board should hold up fine. In logo to mast high waves, I think that there is a big incentive to avoid falling and letting the board and rig smash each other up riding out a set in the impact zone. The other valid concern is that I would not loan this board to an intermediate to sail. One of the beauties of the Speeed is the very thinned out nose which really reduces the swing weight when turning, and reduces any rocking horse effects that I have experienced on boards with thicker heavier noses. With that thin wide nose, any launches off the front are likely to do some damage since the mast impact cannot deflect away like on a more traditional pointy nose. For an experienced sailor who is out in waves, I do not see this as a problem.

Baddog; I agree with you on the different stability affects from the thin rails during paddling versus standing still. Once I am paddling, the water starts flowing lengthwise over the rails, which probably does aid in stability; but when standing relatively still and getting hit from the side, the cross rollers really seem to want to grab and suck the thinner rails under with some authority, rather than just rocking the board the way my thicker railed boards do. Just another worthwhile tradeoff.
I think that you may have really hit on something for me to work on to prevent the runaway bottom turns on bigger waves. My instinct whenever possible is to take the drop as straight as timing allows to try to gain as much speed as possible before laying over into a bottom turn. I think that I should work on your ideas of either turning higher on the face of bigger waves before the speed gets too much for my weight to set the rail, or stomp back on that narrow tail to shut off some speed like stalling for a tube. After you said that, I remember Bert mentioning that in the video about the Speeed. Thanks for the input!
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nalu-sup

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Re: First days on new Sunova Speeed 8'10"
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2015, 10:41:03 PM »
Continuing the stability discussion, I had a surprising experience today. My wife was trying a Bill Foote used custom that is 8'7"x 30 x 3 ¾". with a slightly pulled in nose and a very pulled in tail. I am going to make a wild guess that it is about 115 to 118 liters. Conditions were very choppy with an 16 mph crosswind. I decided to jump on her board just to see if I could even stand up on it in those conditions, and to my surprise it was slightly more stable than my 8'10" 130 liter Speeed. The Bill Foote was completely awash in the standing area, but it was affected much less by the side chop and rollers. Even though it was thinner down the center (almost a concave deck), the rails were maybe slightly thicker than the Speeed. The difference seemed to be that the tapered deck and rails of the Speeed would get sucked under by cross rollers, where the Foote fuller rails and flat to concave deck would stay pretty level. Once I was paddling, I would say that the stability was about even because of the wider nose and better glide of the Speeed, but not when standing. This surprised the heck out of me, and was not what I was expecting. You always learn something when trying a different board.
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eastbound

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Re: First days on new Sunova Speeed 8'10"
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2015, 05:01:52 AM »
neophyte question: what is "pulled in" as in nose, and now, here, tail?

creek told me my aw has a pulled in nose, and that that was a good thing--so i like that! but what does it mean?
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nalu-sup

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Re: First days on new Sunova Speeed 8'10"
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2015, 01:15:46 PM »
Here is my clumsy attempt to explain. On one end of the spectrum you would have a totally squared nose or tail, Tomo style, or like the nose on the Speeed. At the other end of the spectrum would be a very pointy nose or pin tail, where the width 12"s back from the ends gets rapidly narrower; or pulled in. A rounded nose would be very little pulled in with still a lot of width 12" back. The previous AllWaves had an almost rounded nose with just the hint of a point at the nose; while on the newer ones the width got slightly narrower (pulled in) as you came back 12"s from the nose, making the nose point slightly more obvious. Carrying width out to the nose and tail creates more stability and early planing. Narrowing, or pulling in, the nose and tail widths creates quicker rail to rail transitions, and more control and grip in large surf where you need the narrower outline to penetrate the water at high speeds; hence wider noses and tails for planing in small slow surf, and narrower noses and tails for big fast waves, ala "gun" surfboards for huge surf.
Hope that makes sense.
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