Author Topic: Aiming at better designs  (Read 14039 times)

photofr

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Aiming at better designs
« on: July 25, 2015, 04:20:34 AM »
Our Stand Up Paddle boards are great; I certainly enjoy the sport. In fact, I am so ecstatic that I can’t help trying to come up with ways to improve SUP.

Currently, there are two different things I would like to see:
More Speed (as in more glide for each and every single stroke – more efficiency).
More Stability (both do not usually go hand-in-hand, but I know it’s possible).

I’d like to present couple of ideas – trued and tried – and I would love to see them applied to Stand Up Paddling. Before getting started, I’d like to point out that I am not particularly looking to win races, or any speed record. More efficiency and more stability would actually make the sport more pleasant, and safer for many users – not just racers.

Currently, SUP look more like surfboards than anything else. It’s fairly normal, since SUP derived from tandem surfboards. SUP have also borrowed many aspects from windsurf boards, which is somewhat normal since windsurf boards derived from surfing. So far, this seems logical, until we look closer at Craft Speed.

CRAFT SPEED
Surfboards are designed to travel at speed in excess of 28 km/h.
Windsurf boards are designed to travel at speed in excess of 35 km/h.
Surfski Kayaks for speed in excess of 10 km/h.
Ocean Kayaks for speed in excess of 7 km/h.
Stand Up Paddle boards generally travel between 7 and 9 km/h.

HULL SPEED
A 7-year old will tell you that hull design should come from Ocean Kayaks or even better yet: Surfskis. The problem with that is that surfski is really uncommon, and most people do not even know what it is... or what it’s designed for.

SURFSKI
Basically, a surfski is a kayak... specifically designed for Open Ocean fun. Downwind paddling is its main purpose “in life” although surfski happen to do very well upwind, side wind, and/or on flat water.

SURFSKI ORIGIN
Interestingly enough, surfski have been around for over 50 years. Originally designed for saving lives in or near the shores of Australia and South Africa. They have since evolved dramatically.

What I find fascinating is how similar the original surfskis are to today’s SUP boards. Since I used to build surfskis, and since I have paddle one since 1987, I though it would be logical to share some ideas.

LOOK AT WHAT DIDN’T WORK
Let’s take a look at what didn’t work for surfskis. There’s a lot we can learn from design mistakes – nothing wrong with that.

Surfski were too short to be fast.
Their bow was too wide.
Bows didn’t cut the water; bows were pushing a lot of water instead.
Seating area was too high when we narrowed the surfskis; there was a lost in stability.
Surfskis were hard to control without a rudder system.
They were heavy.

LOOKING AT WHAT WORKED
Surfskis became longer: they have leveled off between 18 and 21 feet.
All surfskis bows are now penetrating bows to cut through the water.
They all have volume up front (height, not width).
All seats have been lowered for more stability.
Not all surfskis became narrower; there are more accessible surfskis today than ever before.
They all have a rudder.
A 21-foot long surfski weighs as little as 8.3 kilos – complete with the rudder.


CONCLUSION
I believe that distance paddling SUP boards will have to eventually mimic surfski design attributes. Perhaps 18’ long, 26” in width, “needle nose”, pin tail, lowered standing area, rudder system... Essentially, the bow will have to look like a modern surfski in order to find more paddling efficiency.

Beach Races, SUP surfing, and SUP boards for the river will continue to be different – as you would have it.

I am impatiently waiting for the SUP world to converse with the Surfski world. To do so seems so much more logical (to me) than checking out surfing and windsurfing designs.

A faster craft, a faster SUP will make me want to paddle and train even more. Currently at 2500 km per year... we can all do more !



Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

TallDude

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Re: Aiming at better designs
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2015, 09:33:37 AM »
You're on the right track. Unlimiteds.  The first flat water and non-downwinding racing boards were unlimiteds that evolved from open ocean distance prone paddling. Joe Bark , Craig Richmond,  Russ & Bob from Ohana were the pioneers of these craft. There was a mix of Outrigger and prone distance paddle boards. The first unlimited I shaped had a hull like a modified surf ski. It had some serious roll to it. Not good.  So where do you develop stability?  I think we've come a long way,  but the sky is the limit.
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photofr

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Re: Aiming at better designs
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2015, 10:09:59 AM »
Surprisingly, we don't loose much speed with a wider board*- when we have lots of length.
I feel there are lots of ways to add stability. Here are some examples:
1. Lower the standing area to the max
2. Flatten the hull area immediately in front and behind the feet.
3. Add length (17, 18 and 19').
4. Widen the board, at or just behind the standing area.
5. Add a tiny belly fin.
6. Use a stationary fin in front of the rudder (also serves as anti-algae).

You could do a combination of the above… and end up with so much stability that you could have a board with rails a little more rounded for even more speed.

* I put over 600 km on an ACE GT. During our control test on flat water, we found the wider ACE GT (27"wide) to be faster on flat water than the fastest 12'6 board in the world to date. Keep in mind, the 27" wide board used was not a flat water board. Read this again… it's amazing stuff… Longer boards are just as promising as longer surfskis.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

pdxmike

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Re: Aiming at better designs
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2015, 01:23:08 PM »
All great thoughts!  Especially for flatwater, it seems like a route to progress opens up when people stop thinking of standup as being a surfing sport done on surfing or modified surfing boards. 

There've been similar discussions before on threads about board length limits and race board rules.  I never agreed with the idea that "moving away from our surfing roots" was bad, or that having board designs follow their own paths for different types of use was bad. 

Ironically, the strongest opposition to letting board design follow its own course of evolution has come from the racing segment of standup, which is only one aspect of the sport, and also the one that should be most welcoming of speedier craft.

Off-Shore

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Re: Aiming at better designs
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2015, 02:27:05 PM »
Photofr. I have one of the first prototype SUPs made by Surfski company "Think". It's a fast and very very tippy board with a Surfski style nose. I'm not sure what they are doing now but if this board had a sunken deck like an SB Ace it would be a freekin' awesome board. Made at the factory that makes their Surfskis and using the same construction techniques (hollow), it is also light and more durable than my custom made SIC F16.. Here it is downwinding

http://youtu.be/e8MjjNNaQ70

And here it is racing. This is a 3 year old board and the vid below is a few months ago against some current designs and some of my friends kids in a league race. I'm not a hard core racer or in particularly good shape, but it seems to get me to the podium.. It was ahead of its time..

http://youtu.be/o0Ogw2ZYveM
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 02:58:06 PM by Off-Shore »
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YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/HksupaHk_SUP_and_Downwinding

Eagle

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Re: Aiming at better designs
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2015, 04:58:44 PM »
Here JT expresses his view in an old post from a couple of years ago -

http://www.supracer.com/the-death-and-rebirth-of-sup-racing/
Fast is FUN!   8)
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TallDude

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Re: Aiming at better designs
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2015, 09:04:44 PM »
Huki made a handful of prototype SUPs . They were hollow molded like their surf skis and OCs. A friend of mine who paddle surfskis mostly has one. You can feel the deck flex under your feet. I'm not fond of hollow boards for that reason.
It's not overhead to me!
8'8" L-41 ST and a whole pile of boards I rarely use.

headmount

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Re: Aiming at better designs
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2015, 09:44:01 PM »
Huki made a handful of prototype SUPs . They were hollow molded like their surf skis and OCs. A friend of mine who paddle surfskis mostly has one. You can feel the deck flex under your feet. I'm not fond of hollow boards for that reason.
Mine is a hollow SIC V1 and while the deck has a slight flex the board on length doesn't

photofr

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Re: Aiming at better designs
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2015, 12:55:53 AM »
Offshore: that was a great video for the downwind board from THINK.
We'd have to try for sure, but my very first thoughts were:
Recess the deck - for more stability (as you have said).
More length will also give you more stability.
Adding a rudder is pretty much mandatory if you are cutting the water as well as the THINK.

I will add one more thing…
When one lowers the deck, material is removed from the center, and the board would become more flexible. That's what happened to our surfskis as well. The easy fix: add more material on side walls, especially easy today with carbon.

This is fantastic though. I hope THINK will continue to push forward.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

photofr

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Re: Aiming at better designs
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2015, 01:08:44 AM »
Eagle: I have great respect for Jim Terrel - I really like his QB paddles and think they are some of the best for SUP. With all due respect though, I will have to partially disagree with him.

I had read the article when it had come out. I agree that we shouldn't make boards that are 20" and tippy as heck. That would, in my opinion, also prevent many people from really enjoying the sport.

One of the things I am mentioning above is MORE SPEED and MORE STABILITY.
A board could be much faster and super accessible… we just have to think outside the box, like THINK, for example.

JT had a very valid point though he fell short by immediately thinking to narrow the boards to make them go faster… this isn't necessarily true.
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

Off-Shore

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Re: Aiming at better designs
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2015, 02:48:02 AM »
Huki made a handful of prototype SUPs . They were hollow molded like their surf skis and OCs. A friend of mine who paddle surfskis mostly has one. You can feel the deck flex under your feet. I'm not fond of hollow boards for that reason.

The Think XO 14' feels rock solid to me, and I have not noticed any flexing. Though as Photofr states it does not have a hollowed out dropped deck and so will be stronger. I am thinking about how I could modify the one I have, but how do you solve the drainage unless you follow the Starboard holes in the side design?
SB 9' x 33' x 4.1" - RPC 9'8" iSUP - SB All-Star 12'6" - Blue Planet Bump Rider 14 - SB Ace 14 x 27 - RedAir 14' Elite Race - SIC Bullet 14v1 TWC - SICMaui F16v3 Custom

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/HksupaHk_SUP_and_Downwinding

LeeBee

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Re: Aiming at better designs
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2015, 08:17:37 AM »
Let me wade in from a slightly different perspective. I sailed high performance catamarans for years (18 Square Meter Class), where you had several interesting factors in hull design; the need to be very efficient in both sub planing and planing conditions, but not have to deal with the stability issues of a monohull. I recently same an article on a double hull 16" SUP called the Sandman designed by Mark Raaphorst. While this concept would give a bit greater wetted area, hulls shape could be based on speed, not stability. The other approach which looks interesting to me( for flat water) is that chosen by John Diller of Savage River who's Unlimited design (Needle) uses added width above the normal water level for secondary stability like a C-1 racing canoe.
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TallDude

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Re: Aiming at better designs
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2015, 09:03:26 AM »
I haven't heard much talk about shark skin bottoms. Develop a light film that adheres to the bottom like rail savers and has the characteristics of those outlawed competitive swim suits. Retrofited speed. ...
It's not overhead to me!
8'8" L-41 ST and a whole pile of boards I rarely use.

Eagle

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Re: Aiming at better designs
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2015, 09:48:12 AM »
photofr - we talked to the designer DR when Epic Think and Amundsen brought a bunch of their surfskis and SUP boards to demo at our neighborhood beach.  He is the brains behind Think and is a very nice guy -> so down to earth and easy to talk to.  He even brought his young son down to the beach to play and swim while he helped new paddlers try different surfskis.  It did not matter much whether people liked his surfskis or Epic only that it was the right one for them and their uses.  That was very surprising and a breath of fresh air as some particular designers can be very pompous and imperious.

He is tentatively scheduled to be returning in a couple of weeks as our neighborhood club function was so popular a number of SUP boards and surfskis were purchased right after last time.  If you want to know anything specific about Think or his plans we could make a point to ask him.

As noted in another thread we just had the Canadian Surfski Championships on our local SUP Howe Sound DW run we frequent a lot.  The day of the race it was pumping around 25 kts and always gets a bit surfy steep and deep entering the river where it shallows up.  The link below has the 2014 race recap video and showcases the friendly atmosphere of the event and beauty of the area we are lucky to paddle in.  Often on this run we get decent DW thermal conditions as the land heats up in Whistler - but the water can get very cold at the river mouth.

Think also brings their hollow SUP boards to let people try.  If there is a big enough market for a 18x26 hollow core surfski inspired board then he would be the guy to bring it to market.  His hollow SUP design is a fun shape and profile but paddles too close to our deep vee Dominator to make it into our varied SUP quiver.  Hollow SUP boards are very low production and cost a lot of build as you may know -> so do not sell a lot.   :)

http://canadiansurfskichamps.com
Fast is FUN!   8)
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pdxmike

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Re: Aiming at better designs
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2015, 01:08:52 PM »
photofr--a couple thoughts generated from what you've said:


--going longer is like a magic bullet that solves so many problems.  Not that it's better for everyone or even most people, or good for all types of paddling,  But when it is an option, it's so much more effective and simple a solution than making endless tiny other refinements to designs.  It's like if you designed a house that didn't have enough room in it, then spent endless effort designing built-in storage, fold-out beds, etc. and someone came along and said, "Why not just make the house bigger? It'd cost you half as much and work a lot better".


--it makes me think, when I'm on the water here, the fast craft I see are surfskis, fast kayaks, an occasional rowing shell...flatwater paddling does have much more in common with those than with surfing.  Also, while earlier converts to SUP were probably coming from surfing, windsurfing, etc. I'd bet most around here are either converting from recreational kayaking, or they're younger people who might have taken up kayaking before SUP was available (but still never surfed).  Again more reason to associate standup with these other vessels that already have gone through decades of design evolution aimed at going fast on flatwater.

 


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