Author Topic: Let's talk lay ups. Glassing Schedules  (Read 28650 times)

anonsurfer

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Re: Let's talk lay ups. Glassing Schedules
« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2016, 05:41:31 AM »
On my most recent boards I kept it simple:  4+4 E glass bottom, 4+4 with 3/4 6oz deck patch or 4+6 with 3/4 4oz deck patch (all E glass) on top.  Has worked very well for me. 

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jrandy

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Re: Let's talk lay ups. Glassing Schedules
« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2016, 05:52:01 AM »
Hit me with a shot of that E. As I started looking for glass to order I see that there was a reason I went 6 oz, it's the only glass that comes over 30".

I'm thinking at least a layer of 6 to wrap the rails with 4 oz over the top to smooth it.

Speaking of, I get bubbles in my lam in the 6oz bottom layer. Should I be rolling that or what? it was worse on the first board, wet out table method but even this last one had a spot or two.

Biggreen, I'd like to see what you're doing too.

On the current 12'-6" project I was concerned about bubbles, resin drain, and dry lamination. So I put the easy 4oz 'E' down first by hand to make a hard surface for working with this 7.5 oz 'E' I have which is a tight enough weave to make it harder to wet out.

On the bottom I did a wet-out of the 7.5oz cloth before putting it on the board, on the top I did 3 pours: one for the sunken deck, one for starboard stringer to rail, and one for port stringer to rail.

The wet-out went fine other than I trimmed the cloth first to save resin, which made placement difficult on the bottom. I used up all my working time with Kwik Kick moving the cloth and barely got it all down before it got too stiff to rework.

The multiple pour went OK too except for a couple of dry spots between the pours where the resin was was not wetted 100% through the fabric. I think this is caused by the first batch resin hitting the top of the cloth and it prevented the second and third batch from getting through to the bottom.

I am also considering a slower resin system for laminating SUP's and saving the KK for fill coats and smaller boards.

Overall this board one is 4'E'+7.5'E' each side with a 3K (6oz) plain weave carbon fiber deck patch that has an angled 2" lip on all four sides and some afterthought Vectornet transitions from glass to carbon, nose and tail.  In discussion we concluded that my transisitons from carbon to glass were stress risers. I tacked the Vecto So I tacked some Vectornet on the top for kicks and giggles before the 7.5oz, which was not the best move in hindsight. I should have done them together to reduce the 'telegraphing' effect of the diamond weave and prevention of dry spots.

As always, I am not an expert, just telling what happened for me in the case it proves useful to others.



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surfcowboy

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Re: Let's talk lay ups. Glassing Schedules
« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2016, 07:26:48 AM »
SUPFl thanks, trust me, I feel ya on the work thing. It's taken me almost a year to get this dang longboard out of my garage.

Jrandy, I did a poly multi pour recently and yeah, over lap is key I found. Also I did the same cloth cut to save resin on my first board and it bit me too. I now leave it square and just trim it a little.

I've moved to buying and extra bottle of slow hardener with my kits for lamming. Then I use the fast stuff for everything else. Way easier and then the fill and hot coats still go faster.

Fanman

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Re: Let's talk lay ups. Glassing Schedules
« Reply #63 on: August 22, 2016, 03:55:51 PM »
Good stuff guys!
I've shaped 20 sup's (CAD Files) this last year, and some surfboards and a couple kneeboards. Ed Angulo and my brother Jerry Fanning (RIP) helped inspire me to shape SUP's. I live in NY. for golf season (work), but I'm in Cali in the winter months. I'm chiming in because, I too am in search of the perfect lay up. I've had boards done by Cor-Vac, FL.  Pure Glass - Future Flex, CA. Terance Brandt at Flagship Composites H.B. and Alan Beels in SD. CA.
The Cor-Vac's Inegra vacuum bagged is strong and very light. My 1st one got deck dents pretty fast 6/4 deck, so had the second one get an extra deck layer and that was key. The Future Flex is also light not quite as strong as the previous in the deck department, but again 2 layers etc. I had Terance do S2 6 bottom S2 6/4/4 deck with a carbon stringer and Vector Net 3/4 top and full bottom. This lay up has been the best but also the most costly, but is still very light, so you do get what you pay for. Alan Beels is into getting the board strong, so he did a fill coat, 8oz. top and bottom + 4/4 deck and Vector deck patch. Very strong and a bit heavier as expected. All of the boards I've done are 1.5# and stringer-less. None have broke so far;)
I've got a couple more in the works and was thinking of doing my own glassing, basement project for personal use etc. and was thinking of vacuum bagging and doing a little Vector and carbon also. The fall gets a little cold and boring so I'm up for the challenge!

 

surfcowboy

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Re: Let's talk lay ups. Glassing Schedules
« Reply #64 on: August 22, 2016, 06:33:33 PM »
Fanman, do it. It's a blast to play around with. I haven't done bagging yet but hand lama are fairly easy and I'm happy with the results. Especially using the wet out table to keep the resin ratio lean.

Arany

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Re: Let's talk lay ups. Glassing Schedules
« Reply #65 on: August 23, 2016, 12:13:58 AM »
The vacom chould  have two ways one taking  of the epoxy that he can take back the others  way is just help with hard places  on the board and it was easy than what I think

supuk

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Re: Let's talk lay ups. Glassing Schedules
« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2016, 01:01:12 AM »
im not sure how much dave daum reads this but i have been watching all his laminating vids on Facebook and instagram and i don't think there anyway you would describe his lams as lean,they look like they use a lot of resin but maybe that gives it a little more durability but i have only seen a few of his boards a long time ago.

i don't think there is a huge saving vac baging glass its, more for things like carbon with a looser weave were you want to compress it to reduce the volume of resin ore perhaps vector net  were it can pool resin. The good thing about baking though is you do draw some resin into the blank so you fill some of the small gaps between the beads giving a better bond and less prone to taking on water if you get a ding.

i still use haven't found the need to use anything more fancy than good quality e glass on my surfboards.

mrbig

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Re: Let's talk lay ups. Glassing Schedules
« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2016, 08:57:27 AM »
Have had several boards from King's. Two vac bagged innegra, a heavy ( 10 oz log at my request), 664 66, 444 44, 4444 444. They also do vectra net, and carbon.

Many options available which I am sure is also true for any traditional shaped boards produced by major manufacturers. I know Infinity, L41, Kazuma, Rawson just to name a few offer options..
Let it come to you..
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Fanman

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Re: Let's talk lay ups. Glassing Schedules
« Reply #68 on: August 24, 2016, 05:52:45 PM »
Great ideas and inspiration! Can't wait🏄

surfcowboy

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Re: Let's talk lay ups. Glassing Schedules
« Reply #69 on: August 24, 2016, 07:20:58 PM »
MrBig, how was that 4444 top? That is kind of what I'm thinking for the next one. Mostly 444 with a patch. How was that one?

TallDude

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Re: Let's talk lay ups. Glassing Schedules
« Reply #70 on: August 24, 2016, 07:37:55 PM »
im not sure how much dave daum reads this but i have been watching all his laminating vids on Facebook and instagram and i don't think there anyway you would describe his lams as lean,they look like they use a lot of resin but maybe that gives it a little more durability but i have only seen a few of his boards a long time ago.

i don't think there is a huge saving vac baging glass its, more for things like carbon with a looser weave were you want to compress it to reduce the volume of resin ore perhaps vector net  were it can pool resin. The good thing about baking though is you do draw some resin into the blank so you fill some of the small gaps between the beads giving a better bond and less prone to taking on water if you get a ding.

i still use haven't found the need to use anything more fancy than good quality e glass on my surfboards.
Dave Daum has an engineering background and is a very tech guy. He keeps his V-bag set-up under wraps because very few glassers in the area V-bag. His race boards are light.

 I feel the same about V-bagging only where it makes a noticeable difference. Carbon race boards with recessed foot wells the V-bag is optimal. A surfboard that's E or S glass, a hand layup is fine. Seal with spackle then a thin coat of epoxy w / micro balloons. Lightly sand and remove residue. Wet table and bake (100 deg all night). Repeat other side then Sand, sand, sand.......Remove residue (drag a stretched out piece of masking tape face down back and forth up and down the board, Hot coat and bake again.     
It's not overhead to me!
8'8" L-41 ST and a whole pile of boards I rarely use.

TallDude

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Re: Let's talk lay ups. Glassing Schedules
« Reply #71 on: August 24, 2016, 07:45:29 PM »
MrBig, how was that 4444 top? That is kind of what I'm thinking for the next one. Mostly 444 with a patch. How was that one?
I was at my friends glass shop the other day and I was talking to him about the glassing schedule on a sup he had on a glassing stand. He was telling me the foam was 1.5# and the guy the board was for weighed about 215 lbs. He was going to add an extra layer of 6 in the standing area just because of the guys weight.
It's not overhead to me!
8'8" L-41 ST and a whole pile of boards I rarely use.

PonoBill

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Re: Let's talk lay ups. Glassing Schedules
« Reply #72 on: August 24, 2016, 08:34:16 PM »
Vacuum bagging is pretty much a necessity for molds, or for compound curves where you need to get the fabric to behave. It's kind of overkill for ordinary boards except that you can squeeze a lot of resin out of anything oversaturated. If I want a part to be super light I use a perforated barrier over the peel ply and just sacrifice the breather. I get a slightly starved but fully adhered and incorporated layer. light and strong but not pretty and not waterproof. For water stuff I do a conventional wet layup on top of that layer with no prep. the texture is perfect for adhesion.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

mrbig

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Re: Let's talk lay ups. Glassing Schedules
« Reply #73 on: August 25, 2016, 04:33:41 AM »
 Cowboy, The 4444 is great! Same thickness as a 66 but much stronger and less prone to pressure dings dents and such. If you never are near the front of the board and are heavy, the 444 with a patch (either 4 or 6) works fine as well.

I am a lightweight and will step hard up there so I prefer the 4444!

Here on Cape Cod we have nasty shorebreak with rocks imbedded in the sand. A nasty combination to say the least. This is why I worry as much, if not more about glass strength on the bottom of my boards.

Jimmy Lewis posted that he glasses any custom SUPS he shapes 664 top and bottom. Strong and as he is a very experienced laminator i.e. knows how to get the resin OUT, not super heavy.

My understanding on Innegra, and the need for vac bagging it, is that it has a tendency to float. Ed Angulo, another very experienced laminator, confirmed that in another great conversation we had regarding Innegra.

I know Dave does it on his race boards, which also all use 1 oz foam. Crazy light, carbon cloth lay-ups.

My next surf sup is going to be of the carbon variety.

I feel blessed to have had conversations with some very experienced shapers, many of whom, also started, as laminators. Not uncommon in the "old days"!

I once had an ESA "disposable" contest board made from early open cell eps foam glassed 4 with a patch top, and 4 on the bottom. Light light light!! 4 pounds. Made by Greg Loehr back in the day!!

Here are some pics of New England board tests!!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 04:44:30 AM by mrbig »
Let it come to you..
SMIK 9'2" Hipster Mini Mal
SMIK 8'8" Short Mac Freo Rainbow Bridge
SMIK 8'4" Hipster Twin
King's 8'2" Accelerator SharkBoy

surfcowboy

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Re: Let's talk lay ups. Glassing Schedules
« Reply #74 on: August 25, 2016, 07:07:59 PM »
Dang man, y'all are hard on boards lol. Thank you for all the info. It's truly a brain trust on here and much friendlier than the other build forums too.

I was considering going even lighter on my bottoms, but then again I surf mushy points and don't run into the rocks much.

I've got to find a source for 4oz wide glass. Backyarders don't often buy full rolls. My 4oz has all been deck and bottom covers 27" wide and then I lap with the 38" wide 6oz.

No matter what I want to do, for now I can only source a 644 / 64 with a deck patch. Need to go visit some laminator buddies and buy off of their rolls.

 


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