Let's talk lay ups. Glassing Schedules

[magentawave]

Did you decide to omit a second layer of 6 oz on the deck because you're doing a strip of carbon down the middle?

Glass all ordered.

Deck will be:

6oz 38" E glass X 2

4oz 30" S glass X1

Bottom will be:

6oz 38" E glass X 1

4oz 30" S glass X1

I'm going to not get full rail wraps but I couldn't easily find bigger 4oz S. I'm fine with it.

There will be a stripe of carbon tape down the deck and bottom for stiffness and I'll see how I feel about the tail rail but I'm strongly considering leaving them plain just to see what the flex is like. I can always add it later and cover it with some 2oz or something. This board is an experiment.

Hoping to glass this weekend, we will see, depending on how good the surf is.

[jrandy]

I lent 5 yards of 6oz and got 16 yards of 7.5oz in return with an option to buy another 16 yards at a discount. I will wet out a sample today to see if there are issues.

Would 7.5oz + 3k carbon (under pad deck patch) + 4oz top and 7.5oz + 4oz bottom be enough for a recreational flat water board with 1.5# foam and plywood stringer? Would the 4oz being 'S' versus 'E' be enough to swing a decision? Or go double 7.5 and skip the 4 ?

Thanks, J

[surfcowboy]

Magenta, that says 6oz times 2 above. I've got the 3" stripe, and 6-6-4 going on it.

Jrandy, It's a tough call. I'm conservative and so I'd do the double 7.5 with a wet out table to keep it nice and lean on the resin. But I'd defer to TD or one of the more experienced guys on that one. I'm putting down 16oz (6-6-4) on mine with a deck patch where I stand (which I have to remember to do, making myself a note!) but I have no feel yet for how that layup will feel when standing.

On a flatwater board, if you're not standing there I know people go really light, but that's more racing and not a recreational board. If kids are messing with it, go big. lol

[Biggreen]

I lent 5 yards of 6oz and got 16 yards of 7.5oz in return with an option to buy another 16 yards at a discount. I will wet out a sample today to see if there are issues.

Would 7.5oz + 3k carbon (under pad deck patch) + 4oz top and 7.5oz + 4oz bottom be enough for a recreational flat water board with 1.5# foam and plywood stringer? Would the 4oz being 'S' versus 'E' be enough to swing a decision? Or go double 7.5 and skip the 4 ?

Thanks, J

I think your lay-up sounds good, jrandy. Especially with your stringer. My surf style boards are just 2 1/2 layers of 4 oz S on top without stringer and they're plenty strong. Granted they're not 12'6", but I think you're plenty covered. Please post up pics. We'd love to see your project!

[TallDude]

I lent 5 yards of 6oz and got 16 yards of 7.5oz in return with an option to buy another 16 yards at a discount. I will wet out a sample today to see if there are issues.

Would 7.5oz + 3k carbon (under pad deck patch) + 4oz top and 7.5oz + 4oz bottom be enough for a recreational flat water board with 1.5# foam and plywood stringer? Would the 4oz being 'S' versus 'E' be enough to swing a decision? Or go double 7.5 and skip the 4 ?

Thanks, J

I agree. You'll be fine with that lay-up. Plus you have 1.5# foam which helps. The 3K is probably 5.7oz Plain weave? That will be plenty for under the deck pad.

[jrandy]

Thanks everyone!

Yes, the 3K is 5.7 oz plain weave CF found online and ordered by phone. I went to the local supplier for some 4oz and sundries.

I did some tests with the 7.5oz: 2 square feet 'clear' over spackled foam and 8" x 12" over yellow and blue acrylic painted foam as an afterthought to use up the extra epoxy. Nothing fancy, just mix-pour-spread- and pull with a squeegee. The cloth looked ok getting lammed (other than feeling thick) but afterwards I saw some signs that I may have been a bit dry. The dry spots really show over the blue. Adhesion to the foam in both cases is good. I was not planning on a wet-out table or vacuum bagging, should I be rethinking this?

I'll put some more pictures of the build up in the 12'-6 x 30 design tips thread. -J

[magentawave]

I read that S cloth is 20% stronger than E. (Although at Swaylocks Greg Loehr said there is only a 5% difference.)

Does anyone know how well a lighter all S cloth schedule would hold up verses an all E cloth schedule like this...

S CLOTH:
BOTTOM: Two layers of 4s
DECK: 4s + 4s + 4s deck patch

E CLOTH:
BOTTOM: 6e + 4e
DECK: 6e + 6e + 4e deck patch

[surfcowboy]

Reinvigorating this one a year later.

Adding what I've learned from some other boards and prepping for the next build.

Review - Simmons was 6e-6e-4s deck (with another patch of 4s) and I've gotten some pretty good dents where I stand. (don't think that's uncommon for a non sandwich board.)

I'm considering a 4-4-4 with a 4 patch in standing area for this one or maybe some sort of wood lam in the standing area. (Don't want to over complicate so the jury is out, but..) 4-4-6 (all E) might also be an option with only the 6 wrapping the rails.

Bottom was 6-4 and I'm going 4-4 as I'm not that hard on my stuff.

Need to go check my notes on the haterade build and see what that was but that was plenty strong. The Simmons is near bulletproof and with better technique I'm aiming for lighter. Jury out on wet-out table but I'll probably do it again with something of this size if I can get a better table setup. (Saw Horses, what a concept?) I did Home Depot buckets and nearly broke my back last time.

There's something to be said for buying glass in bulk and just using the same stuff, so I may be a 4oz convert.

[Bean]

My Phoenix is 100% s glass, non-sandwich and developed defined standing channels.  I have noticed that boards produced after mine tend to have CF deck patches.  I'm not convinced that a CF patch is equal to a good sandwich though.

In my case the standing channels are non-issue/cosmetic and a fair trade-off for the light weight.

ed. (Oh crap, I'm contradicting my post May 2015 post)

[SUPflorida]

My preference in order...Carbon, S2 Glass, E glass, Kevlar.

If it's a wave board it's usually S2glass. My personal experience has been S2 of equal weight laminate is much stronger stiffer and less prown to pressure ding than e-glass. By a fairly wide margin...considerably more than 5%. But if your building boards for a living it would only be human nature to down play materials that cut into your "margin". Plus the you can't sell as many boards if they last too long.

This is  the IKEA generation that gets board with thing on increasing shorter time cycles. I have a sneeky suspicion those of us that have been truely bitten by the SUP bug get board with the shape long before the board wears out...if it's a decent board to start with.

The only reason I would use e-glass is because it's cheaper...or that's all you have access to...but with the web you can get anything you want no matter where you live...so much for that excuse🤑...

Keep in mind when your spending the time to build your own board the cloth is only part of the expense. I like to use the best stuff I can get my hands on...you never know if the next board you create is going to "the Magic board"...wouldn't it be a bummer if you built it like a throwaway test shape?

Plus you want to recoup some of your expense and the better you build it the more chance of getting a portion of your money out of it for the next build..,

If someone wants an all around shape, unless their adamant about building... its cheaper to buy...average person will pay so much for the materials it's not economical. Now if you want to build an exotic race board that's when it starts paying off...if you got the chops/shop/tools you can make a $4,500 full carbon race board for about $800-$900 in materials. Throw another $215-$ 325 if you want a full 3/16" divinycell wrap.

If your going to spend the most precious thing in life...your time...make it count 😏

[surfcowboy]

Bean, we all change and grow man. Wish more people could admit when they contradict themselves these days.

FL, Thank you. Can I ask, based on what tests do you make the call on the S glass? Not being contrary but my E glass boards are solid as a rock and a lot of pros really doubt the difference that S makes. I don't know but I'm asking. If you've owned similar boards in E and S or if you have owned a ton of boards or are a pro shaper, let me know. As I said, not challenging but really wanting specifics. Online all I see are mentions of this and specs but not a lot of stories or real experience of head to head info on S vs E.

I talk to a lot of pro glassers (they make more for exotic materials) and they don't really encourage spending the extra on a SUP. I could see it on a thin skinned short board but I'm going to have 3-4 layers where I stand and 2 to 4 layers on the rails. I'm not sure how much I'd notice if it was stiffer ( or even if I'd want that in a SUP.)

As to my time, I get that. I do this as a hobby, I'm gonna build something for fun. And I'm not really in it to be cheap but I don't want to pay more and deal with less manageable cloth (S is a lot stiffer to deal with) unless I'm getting a real benefit. I have enough S for deck patches or might buy some carbon to experiment with that as a patch. I already use carbon tape as a stringer replacement (though I'm considering a Hayden shapes style carbon rail for this one.)

I can't see E lasting any less long as long as the deck patch keeps the foot wells from delamming in a reasonable time. I'm pretty easy on boards. But I am concerned about landfill. (i am committed to stripping the glass and recycling my old foam, btw.)

Btw, I don't think I'd ever need Kevlar etc. in a board for myself, I'm just not thinking that high performance. If I was, I think I'd want that in a prone board over my SUP.

If you look back a lot of this was covered but I wanted to keep adding to the knowledge base here. Thanks for the feedback and FL if you have some stories to tell, I'd love to hear your experience.

[surfcowboy]

Also forgot, most importantly. Can't find S glass wider than 30" anywhere. Most is 27" unless you buy a roll.

[Biggreen]

Also forgot, most importantly. Can't find S glass wider than 30" anywhere. Most is 27" unless you buy a roll.

I talked to the guys at Greenroon recently and they told me the wide S glass is getting hard to come by, and I wanted to buy a full roll. I bought a 42" tight weave 6 oz E glass from Thayercraft that I really like. And only $3 a yard shipped to your door. Wets out far easier than I would have thought and drapes nicely. I'll post a pic if anyone is interested.

[surfcowboy]

Hit me with a shot of that E. As I started looking for glass to order I see that there was a reason I went 6 oz, it's the only glass that comes over 30".

I'm thinking at least a layer of 6 to wrap the rails with 4 oz over the top to smooth it.

Speaking of, I get bubbles in my lam in the 6oz bottom layer. Should I be rolling that or what? it was worse on the first board, wet out table method but even this last one had a spot or two.

[SUPflorida]

Surfcowboy...Im happy to respond to your questions but I'm burried at work🚀 at the moment ...as soon as I get my head above water 🌊