Simsup or Tomo based boards - rockerlines

[AlexFun]

Hello,
I want to get a SimSup or Tomo based Custom board, but located in the south of germany our  local shapers  have quite some experiences in building windsurfing boards but not in SUP or Surfboard shapes.
Mountains, beer and brezels are more common here than waves 
Custom boards from the US or Aus are not an option (shipping), Eurobased only Gong possible, but they have huge waiting times for a board and located in south of France are not really "local" for me.
So why custom and not big brand boards like a JP Slate or Naish raptor or AHD Sealion?
I'm not sure what JP and Nasih offer is exactly what i want since this board should also work as a Windsup/Foilboard getting a Tuttlebox as a center box.
(I discussed that already in the Wind powered section.)
The AHD Sealion imo are not up to date with their shapes anymore, reading all the stuff about Simsup and Tomo.

My idea would be a board around 8' x 30" to 8'4 X 31", 4 1/2 to 4 7/8", 130 to 140 liters, to support my 90 kg / 200 lbs in choppy SUP conditions or when putting a windsurfing rig on.
With this measures i guess it has to be more Simsup than Tomo concept. Or?
Outline and rails according. Bottom concave to double concave V  in the tail (like Simsups)

So now my question to all you in the know out there:
What rockerline would you suggest for such board?
Windsurffing rockers would be to flat?
Im thinking of a staged rocke, flat scoop 4" on the first 3' , flattish from 3' to 7', than tailkick to 2" of tailrocker.
Is this any good for SUSing, i have no clue?
If somebody wants to design something like that in 3DX od Acuushaper etc. your welcome with everything you suggest.
Thank you all.
Alex

[Dwight (DW)]

You have to decide what's more important, windSUP or surfing. You have to compromise on one.

I'd suggest going for a windsurf WAVE rocker. It will windSUP great and SUP good enough.  Going the other way, surfing rocker, makes a lame windSUP.

[AlexFun]

Hi DW,
thanx for your response.
I wouldn't like to compromise the SUS part that much.
I just wonder how much the "faster/flatter" rocker of Simsup/Tomo boards differ to windsurfing waveboard rockers.
When i measured my SUPs and Windsurfboards i found my Starboard Converse 9'0 having 40mm tailrocker and a 30 cm flat area at 85 - 115cm from the tail, whereas my Goya Custom Quad 94 has 22mm tailrocker and a 60 cm flat at 30cm - 90 cm from the tail (measure bar laying centered at 1meter from tail).

Do you have numbers for the rocker of standard Wavesups vs. Simsup/Tomo Shapes or windsurfboards?
What does "flat or fast rocker" of the new shapes mean in numbers, flat straights etc?
Sorry if i'm asking such stupid questions 

Alex

[windsup]

Hi Alex,
I have gone through similar questionning a while ago to shape a while ago, DW actually kindly shared his strapless windsurfer shape.

There is a choice to make between SUP/surf & planning/windsurf I agree.

Considering SUP+Rig is only useful in 0-15knots then you take out the real waveboard for windsurf, I prioritized the SUP/surf rocker.

As a results it planes like a slug dragging water even quite well powered, but is really fun SUP ing in small waves.

I think sealion uses a rocker closer to a windsurfer than a SUP.

To make comparison difficult, windsurf rocker line are often measured with the reference line being the flat between the straps,
while SUP/surf rockers are measured with a reference point being the middle "balancing point".

So typical measures could be something like :
-windsurf (wave) : kick 1-2cm, flat from 30 to 80cm, scoop 22cm (progressive from 75 to nose)
-sup (surf) : kick 7cm, no real flat but a "less curved" part where you stand to paddle, scoop 13cm...
But they are not taken from the same reference.

If you want to compare them load two shapes into shape3d for instance.
The essential difference I think is a windsurf planning rocker is designed around a flat (or almost) between straps to have planning & speed,
there is much more curve in the nose than in the back. A SUP/surf curve is much more distributed and constant around the center.
So if you use a windsurf rocker on a SUP (or just paddle a windsurfer) you will tend to stand further back than the center where you
should be, and have the nose high above the water. A SUP rocker for windsurf has drag (no real flat) and does not plane well.

For my board eventually I settled for 5.5cm tail rocker (smooth not kicked) & 15cm front (from center), it is a 265cm length.
So a bit more at the front a bit less at the back than standard sup/surf.
It is nice paddling and catching small waves it takes off fast.
It is "pretty lame" as DW states for windsurfing but can be sailed OK, just poor planning.

Hope that answers your question....
Check this out for windsurf shaping database & tutorials ...

http://guidedupetitshapeur.creerforumsgratuits.fr/t192-ligne-de-rocker

The bord I made is attached as image, could have been better that was the first I did.

Last thing : bill of material same or higher than second-hand sealion / sup, mess in garage, long hours of work...

[jpeter]

I think sealion uses a rocker closer to a windsurfer than a SUP.

Sealion has continuous rocker,  and a lot of it.   Nothing like a windsurfer,  which is why it doesn't plane real fast.   Chop kills the speed,  but it loves to catch waves and turn on them.   I have the XL.   Great board to have if you look at waves over wind.   I think it paddle surfs pretty well,  but don't have much to compare it to.

JP

[AlexFun]

Work in progress: Plan now is to measure rockerlines of the 7'6 of my friend and stretch it to 7'10.
Then straighten the tail, maybe keep a slight swallow or moon tail.
Then square the nose Tomo like.
Then put in 1" more width throughout the centerline.
Then shape in monoconcave to double concave V. Still not shure about that, maybe Tomo channels would be better. Then thin out the board to 4,5".
Then thin out rails in the back third.
Then put in twinser quad box setup.
Then a tuttlebox between the feet for foiling.
Then buy a Gong foil.
Then hope that it works.
Alex

[AlexFun]

As discussed already in the above thread and coming from a AHD sealion XL 9' x 30" i have the idea to get a modern shaped SUP that also has all necessary windsurf and foil options:

Thanx to the valuable feedback of the good guys in the know here in the forum i could define a concept that should fullfill my requirements. The project now started to realise and is documented here (German Forum), i'll translate if there are questions:
http://www.surf-forum.com/showthread.php?16219-Suche-nach-dem-holy-grail-Windsurf-SUP/page2

Pics will follow here.

Final Input parameters were:
- Target Dimension 8' x 30" x 4 1/2", 130 -135 liters
- Fast Rockerline of the Sealion Classic 7'6 (which is actually a 7'10 !), measured 6" nose / 2" tail rocker
- Outline/Rails/Quad setup of the Stretch Minion 8'4/Minion 7'10
- Tail and Planshape, concave to doubleconcave V of the Naish raptor
- Quad Setup Futureboxes, all 3/4"
- Powerbox Centerbox for Windsurfing or Thrustersetup
- Tuttlebox 45cm from tail for Foiling
- Footstrap Inserts
- Layup Carbon/Glass Sandwich, reinforced Deck for windsurfrig impacts
- Target weight < 9 kg, without windsurf/foil requirements 7 kg would be possible

Board is shaped/build by a friend living nearby who started building windsurfboards afterwork for himself and friends some time ago. Remember we're living in the wave/windsurf diaspora in the south of germany, home of beer, brezels, Porsche, Mercedes and the Kuckucksuhr from the blackforrest
http://www.boardschmiede.de/

Alex