Author Topic: Will it downwind? Yes or No?  (Read 67110 times)

Off-Shore

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Will it downwind? Yes or No?
« on: February 28, 2015, 08:22:45 PM »
Some of you may have seen the "Will it Blend?" series of Viral vids/ads where they put snooker balls, magnets, iPhones etc in Blenders to determine whether they blend or not, so I thought I'd start a new thread here entitled "Will it Downwind?"

This is a thread which tests to see if non-specific downwind boards can downwind. Anything goes..

First up is a hollow carbon THINK Kayak SUP XO 14' prototype that I have circa 2013. THINK are makers of Surfskis, which are made for downwinding.. so should one of the first SUPs they made downwind too?

This is a very fast flat water board, but almost unrideable (for me) in any sort of side-slop or swell. The back half of the board hull is flat. The front half is "V" shaped, so it is extremely tippy, and throws even the most experienced paddlers off that have tried it in anything else than flat water or upwind... What it needs is a recessed deck, like a Starboard ACE to solve the stability..

So will it downwind, and if it does, how will it perform? Let's see...

http://youtu.be/e8MjjNNaQ70
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 08:42:37 PM by Off-Shore »
SB 9' x 33' x 4.1" - RPC 9'8" iSUP - SB All-Star 12'6" - Blue Planet Bump Rider 14 - SB Ace 14 x 27 - RedAir 14' Elite Race - SIC Bullet 14v1 TWC - SICMaui F16v3 Custom

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/HksupaHk_SUP_and_Downwinding

covesurfer

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Re: Will it downwind? Yes or No?
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2015, 09:32:52 PM »
Looks like your conditions are semi protected by islands or land masses of some sort.

The Columbia River is what I'd call semi protected as well. Basically there's windswell but not much in the way of groundswell from far away storms. On Maui, we have southside runs where typically there is not much bump other than wind-generated swell (not always, but mostly). In those type of conditions, anything will downwind.

Race boards, like the Think, with boxy rails, small, pulled in tails and displacement style bows will be pretty fast if you can manage to balance them. In the Gorge, riding race boards for a speed advantage on downwinders has become the rule, rather than the exception. I think almost all of the fast paddlers there are on race boards rather than downwind boards. Even when it gets big there, the swell is pretty lined up and you can get away with riding really racy flat water boards. It's a blast and many of them surf great.

On the north side of Maui, we typically get not only long fetch windswell, but open ocean groundswell. Those kind of conditions make riding race boards very uncertain. Some people can do it, but it's not typically faster than on a true downwind board. Those kind of conditions are just too difficult and technical to confer advantage to racing style boards. Personally, I'm way too chicken to try it. And, I know I wouldn't be faster anyway.

One thing I thought of while enjoying your video, you can experiment with the fin. It appears to be all the way back in the box. That may be part of the reason that turning is a challenge. If you can, try moving it forward in the box. That should loosen the board up some. Another thing is to try different style fins and see how the board performs using them. I ended up running a swept back, windsurf fin in my old Javelin 14 for downwinding in the Gorge. It really made the board come to life.  I brought the Jav to Maui, but ended up selling it. While it was great fun in the semi protected waters of the Gorge, it was way too unstable for unprotected, open ocean conditions.

PonoBill

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Re: Will it downwind? Yes or No?
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2015, 10:52:59 PM »
You could also try one of those cut-out fins that Jeremy Riggs and Larry collaborate on.

In the spirit of the topic, I'd tell you that any reasonable long board makes for a fun downwinder, just some are more fun than others. The 12'2" X 26" Ku Nalu /Starboard is a gas. So is the old 12'6" X 30" Starboard. Pull the thrusters out of any surfboard over ten feet and it's kind of fun though your mileage will vary.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Off-Shore

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Re: Will it downwind? Yes or No?
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2015, 04:23:27 AM »
CS and PB. Thanks for your comments. I had never taken this board out on a downwind before, but yesterday morning our 2km / 1.25km starter downwind run, the "Stanley Run" was working and so I decided to chance it. As CS says, it is a sheltered run, until then end, when the ground swell comes in from the left hand side, so it is an excellent safe run to test boards and take beginner downwinders on.

I was surprised how smooth and how little paddling was required to get it going, but also how much my legs were working + stabilising paddle strokes required compared to a downwind specific board or my Starboard All Star..

I'm going to change the fin as you suggest and try it again, maybe with the 3rd person mount to see a bit more of the board. It is sweet when it runs..
SB 9' x 33' x 4.1" - RPC 9'8" iSUP - SB All-Star 12'6" - Blue Planet Bump Rider 14 - SB Ace 14 x 27 - RedAir 14' Elite Race - SIC Bullet 14v1 TWC - SICMaui F16v3 Custom

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/HksupaHk_SUP_and_Downwinding

Area 10

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Re: Will it downwind? Yes or No?
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2015, 07:16:20 AM »
I agree with the fin advice you've been given. I like the Danny Ching fin for flatwater when there are few turns, but it is fairly tragic for downwinding. Use something with a shorter base. It might make a considerable difference to the problem you were having with turning. Narrower, lower volume tails require less fin area for DWing, I find.

Blue crab

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Re: Will it downwind? Yes or No?
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2015, 07:38:51 PM »
I second cove's sentiment regarding race boards in protected downwind. For Puget Sound which is somewhat protected from groundswell, I have used a couple of downwind boards over the last couple of years, most recently a V3 F16.  The benefits of these boards on big days goes without saying.

My other board is a King's AC Elite. See the attached pictures. It is 14 x 25 and featherweight. Note the fairly pierced "bird of prey" nose, recessed deck, ever so slight rocker, boxy rails and thinned out tail.  Not surprisingly, it excels in flat water, but is also quite stable in side chop relative to past racing boards that I have had.

It is also great fun in downwinders to the extent that I sometimes have difficulty choosing which board to take out.  While pearling is generally a bad thing with my high rocker boards, it is actually a pre-requisite for catching glides on the AC Elite. As Offshore demonstrated in his video, a glide starts out with piercing a bump and within a second or two the board pulls put and starts to float / plane. It's a total hoot and in groomed conditions, connecting bumps is actually pretty straightforward with almost no effort needed to paddle into bumps. The AC Elite has a particularly thin tail so it is really maneuverable and surfy in the midst of a glide.  The other feature of the board that I love is how efficiently it travels upwind.  If I am lacking a partner, it is fun to do laps. Downwind boards are far less fun going upwind.

There are downsides of course. Trimming needs to be more precise and quick. In particular, at the end of a glide, I sometimes find my self too far back on the board and this can mean water time.  Balance is generally ok but there is definitely the need to brace a bit more. The cumulative effect of all of this trimming and bracing is that fatigue definitely sets in more rapidly on the King's relative to the F16.  Nevertheless, it can be incredibly fun on the right day.

Off-Shore

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Re: Will it downwind? Yes or No?
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2015, 10:27:48 PM »
BC. Great comments here. Thank you. It was a revelation to me that the Think could be downwinded. I absolutely see why you have trouble deciding whether to take your F16v3 or the Kings, and on this short run I can see myself taking the Think out a lot more (with a different fin).

As you say, in these groomed no ground swell conditions it is a blast. Also agree on the work out. Much more tiring on the legs and full concentration required. I actually fell off 1/2 way across fiddling with my Garmin watch. Took my eyes off the water / horizon for a few seconds and I was suddenly in the water. The upwind ability of this board is also incredible. You are right, upwinding a downwind board is no fun with the Slap slap slap compared to the slicing the race board does.

The next board I'm taking out downwinding will be the RedPaddle 14' Elite Race inflatable. Should be interesting...
SB 9' x 33' x 4.1" - RPC 9'8" iSUP - SB All-Star 12'6" - Blue Planet Bump Rider 14 - SB Ace 14 x 27 - RedAir 14' Elite Race - SIC Bullet 14v1 TWC - SICMaui F16v3 Custom

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/HksupaHk_SUP_and_Downwinding

PonoBill

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Re: Will it downwind? Yes or No?
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2015, 10:52:39 PM »
When the tail of my Bullet 17 comes up suddenly I'll often stuff the nose and just hold it rather than try an emergency banking turn. It's a fun thing to learn to do. It's not super fast, you travel at wave speed, but you can hold the nose still for quite a distance. I think the guys that paddle skis do that on purpose sometimes too. I've seen Larry go by "balancing" on the nose with his.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Blue crab

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Re: Will it downwind? Yes or No?
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2015, 12:01:30 AM »
OS, I am no expert downwinder. However, I think there is real value in switching up boards.  When I am on the race board, I focus mostly on foot position, staying midline etc... When I am on the V3, it is so stable and forgiving, that I can be much more attune to reading the water, angling, and keeping track of my kids if they are along for the journey. Keep it up with great videos!

SUPJorge

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Re: Will it downwind? Yes or No?
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2015, 10:26:50 AM »
OS,

Great idea for a thread, will pass it on to your CPN friends in the (305). AS PB said, any reasonable long board will glide, but I think it's an excellent idea to explore the diff attributes of diff boards. You can imagine my trying to DW this flat water race board (and nose) across Biscayne Bay during the 45mph winds of Hurricane Isaac. I couldn't turn the thing to save my life so the nose would pearl into the back of the front wave like a dolphin diving for the bottom, then I'd jump back to the tail and the entire front half of the board would come up like a submarine breaking the surface. Crazy ride, for sure. Keep up the good work

PS. Love the video, love the glide
14' SIC Bullet V2 - 9'1" Naish Hokua X32 LE

Off-Shore

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Re: Will it downwind? Yes or No?
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2015, 05:11:22 PM »
SJ. I love that description of yours and can just imagine it coming to the surface like a submarine!

Next time take a head cam and let's see a vid of it. I took out my SB All-Star 12-6 yesterday with a friend on a flat water Laird 12-6 board but the wind was just not enough to get good footage. Tomorrow looks like an epic day and so it will be time for the RedPaddle 14' Elite iSUP. Will it downwind?
SB 9' x 33' x 4.1" - RPC 9'8" iSUP - SB All-Star 12'6" - Blue Planet Bump Rider 14 - SB Ace 14 x 27 - RedAir 14' Elite Race - SIC Bullet 14v1 TWC - SICMaui F16v3 Custom

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/HksupaHk_SUP_and_Downwinding

yugi

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Re: Will it downwind? Yes or No?
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2015, 02:27:43 AM »
Yep. It will. But you’ll need well over 20 kn to get those things truly planing. More like over 28-30 kn to really start to have fun.

The flexy-ness of inflatables makes them very sticky on the water and harder to initiate the plane. You need to accelerate hard with the paddle and get well back quick enough to peel the nose off the water. It’s an effort but once on a plane inflatables zoom. The roundy-ness seems to be fast but, of course, it also means no carving so you’re just a passenger for the ride. Feels a bit like a pinball in a pinball machine. Just go with the flow and wish for the best.

Downwinding different boards makes you a better rider for sure. Each will have their challenges and make you better at overcoming them. Inflatables are downright hilarious - just because it is so absurd. Definitely one of the hardest workouts I’ve ever had - just because you are always oh-so-close-but-not-quite  getting it to plane that you redline yourself to make it go faster.

Sure you can downwind almost anything but a shape that planes and carves is where the fun, and satisfaction, is at for me. I guess I know I’m still working on that part.

I’d like to hear how the All-Star fares in your comparison testing. I presume it’s a decently controllable planing shape. Therefore fun. Was thinking about one before I leapfrogged straight to the 14’ pure downwinder boards.

I think grin-factor is the proper way to rate a board on a downwind.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 02:36:10 AM by yugi »

Lakeshore1

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Re: Will it downwind? Yes or No?
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2015, 05:42:37 AM »
This is going to be a fun thread to follow.
I initially purchased my 14' 404 Zeedonk green label, with the understanding that it IS a race board, and that with the square tail it should downwind fairly well. While it does downwind in chop up to 2' quite well, in bigger conditions  (think Lake Michigan and 4'-8' waves and confused chop) not so good. I bought an SIC F14 last summer and could not be happier about having that board. It seems to catch everything.

Off-Shore

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Re: Will it downwind? Yes or No?
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2015, 06:50:23 AM »
This is going to be a fun thread to follow.

LS. I hope so. Do you think I should just add the next video to this thread, or start a new thread for each board? I just finished a vid for the Starboard All-Star 12-6, as the wind was not strong enough for the RedPaddle 14' Elite Race iSUP yesterday.

Yep. It will. But you’ll need well over 20 kn to get those things truly planing. More like over 28-30 kn to really start to have fun.

The flexy-ness of inflatables makes them very sticky on the water and harder to initiate the plane. You need to accelerate hard with the paddle and get well back quick enough to peel the nose off the water. It’s an effort but once on a plane inflatables zoom. The roundy-ness seems to be fast but, of course, it also means no carving so you’re just a passenger for the ride. Feels a bit like a pinball in a pinball machine. Just go with the flow and wish for the best.

Downwinding different boards makes you a better rider for sure. Each will have their challenges and make you better at overcoming them. Inflatables are downright hilarious - just because it is so absurd. Definitely one of the hardest workouts I’ve ever had - just because you are always oh-so-close-but-not-quite  getting it to plane that you redline yourself to make it go faster.

I think grin-factor is the proper way to rate a board on a downwind.

Yugi, We have some good winds (20+ knots) forecast for tomorrow and the day after, and I'm hopeful I can get the RedPaddle out and planing. I have downwinded it before several times and agree it is one helluva work out, and a challenge to get on the plane unless it is 'smokin'... I have experienced that "oh-so-close-but-not-quite, getting it to plane that you redline yourself to make it go faster" way too many times..

The SB All-Star 12-6 I took out yesterday is a 2013 version, and my buddy was paddling a 12-6 flat-water Laird.. Quite fun to see them together.. Video will go up within 24 hours..
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 06:52:52 AM by Off-Shore »
SB 9' x 33' x 4.1" - RPC 9'8" iSUP - SB All-Star 12'6" - Blue Planet Bump Rider 14 - SB Ace 14 x 27 - RedAir 14' Elite Race - SIC Bullet 14v1 TWC - SICMaui F16v3 Custom

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/HksupaHk_SUP_and_Downwinding

SUPJorge

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Re: Will it downwind? Yes or No?
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2015, 12:18:03 PM »
Add the next video to this thread and you'll create an easy-to-find source.
14' SIC Bullet V2 - 9'1" Naish Hokua X32 LE

 


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