Author Topic: Two leash plugs - how to rig the cords?  (Read 23057 times)

Wetstuff

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Re: Two leash plugs - how to rig the cords?
« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2015, 01:45:31 PM »
Robert's video raised a question in my mind.. Does not putting a knot in a line half the tensile rather than double it?  In the early days of kites we found knots to be deadly. 

I am glad you guys raised this leash anchor issue - nobody wants to tear up gear.

Jim
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PonoBill

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Re: Two leash plugs - how to rig the cords?
« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2015, 05:43:56 PM »
Here is a little video we shot yesterday on the topic, it shows why I don't recommend using two leash strings.  I know not everyone will agree on our method, but it has been working great on hundreds of boards over the last few years.  Bill, your chart did convince me to put the dual leash plugs closer together on our boards in the future, thanks for that little lesson on the physics of leverage.

Of course there's a downside to getting the plugs close together--if you are relying on the fiberglass to hold the plugs, moving them closer will make them weaker. If you stick them into a divynicell cartridge it won't matter, but if they're bedded close together in EPS the failure of one plug will probably fail the other. More to the point, I just don't get why you'd give up the redundancy you gained at some expense by installing two plugs.

If your concern is the leverage on the leash saver, then I think your solution of a second, looser line makes some sense. It could be just kite line. something to serve as an indicator that you had a failure without your board heading off without you.

I'd say I've never had an issue with a leashsaver opening, but I'd have to add the caveat: "yet". The simple truth is that no one really tests this stuff, so it's all guesswork and experience. Unfortunately the experience is not very relevant. SUP surfing and open ocean paddling is about ten years old, and SUP-specific leashes are younger yet. At first everyone used standard longboard leashes, and they broke in the polyurethane string. Then they started beefing up parts, and they broke elsewhere. In my very unsophisticated yearly tests I could easily see the progression. Unfortunately unlike Beasho, I don't record data by reflex, or I'd have an interesting history of the evolution. I think the next failure point after manufacturers beefed up the polyurethane was the joint between the cord and swivel. Manufacturers made those longer and stronger so swivels and the attachment point of swivel to cuff and swivel to leashsaver started failing. Now it's all over the place, with failures spread around.

The only exception if Creatures of Leisure leashes which fail when the swivel pulls out of the cuff. For some bizarre reason they take a well engineered leash and then press the swivel into the cuff plug with an interference fit--no cross screw. I've had them pull out as low as 40 pounds and higher than 100 (my scale only goes to 100), but they are the failure point. You might consider that a safety feature except that it's inconsistent. the swivel can creep for a while and then it goes with a pretty light pull. No idea what the idea there is, an interference fit between a stainless steel swivel with a smooth surface and a hole in plastic when the device is under tension seems totally whacked to me. But it's a good indication of the testing level.

Wardog, thanks for that. it might be a better solution than what I put together last night. On yesterdays' Maliko I was reeling my board back oh-so-gently every time I fell, and trying to catch the board as I fell. Hard on the shoulders to hook that big board with your arm as you're falling past it. I need a leash I can trust, or I need to stop falling. A few years ago I watched Ekolu Kalama head off for Molokai from Maliko (adds an extra 15 miles to the trip) on a non-rudder downwind board with no leash and two cans of coconut juice in his pocket for hydration. That would be simple suicide for me.


« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 06:13:49 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

supdiscobay

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Re: Two leash plugs - how to rig the cords?
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2015, 06:37:32 PM »
Robert,
Thanks for doing those videos.  The only problem I had was when you are using a single spectra line looped through two leash plugs, in your video you wrapped the rail saver around both of the lines.  The problem is if one leash plug breaks, the loop will just slide through the rail saver and you lose your board.  I like the fact that it spreads the load to both leash plugs, but you can get the same affect by wrapping the rail saver around only one line and letting the other line lay on the board between the plugs.
I have never broken a loop line, but I have pulled out a leash plug (not on an SUP) So I don't think I would worry about breaking the loop line, especially if I am using spectra.
8'5" Starboard Pocket Rocket, 8'0" Kazuma Fugu custom,  8'10" Kings Sidewinder, 10' Starboard Noserider, 14' BARK Carbon Dominator, SIC F16 V3, KeNalu and Quickblade paddles, 19' Eaton Prone, 67" Goode 9700

PonoBill

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Re: Two leash plugs - how to rig the cords?
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2015, 07:10:41 PM »
I've seen as many loops break as anything else, especially when people use the stock piece-of-crap string. The HMDPE lines are more reliable. The key with any string is frequent replacement. Even quality polyethylene rope with a polypropylene cover will wear and fray.

Yes, any knot will weaken a rope. but a leash rope doesn't break at the knot, it breaks where the line doubles over the pin. Sharp bends are the reason knots weaken rope, add friction and "working" to the bend and you have fraying.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

supthecreek

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Re: Two leash plugs - how to rig the cords?
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2015, 07:43:52 PM »
Good stuff going on here.... thanks all  :D

southwesterly

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Re: Two leash plugs - how to rig the cords?
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2015, 07:49:33 PM »
What I like is that everybody admits that it's really no big deal, but it highjacked one thread and filled up four pages on this one so far.

You gotta love the Zone.

PonoBill

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Re: Two leash plugs - how to rig the cords?
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2015, 10:07:19 PM »
It's not a big deal until you're a mile out with no board and no one around. Been there, done that. Didn't like it.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

pdxmike

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Re: Two leash plugs - how to rig the cords?
« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2015, 11:38:17 PM »
What I like is that everybody admits that it's really no big deal, but it highjacked one thread and filled up four pages on this one so far.
I think it worked out better having two threads.  The whole conversation might have died off if the longer, second thread hadn't kicked in after the first one broke down. 

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Two leash plugs - how to rig the cords?
« Reply #53 on: February 27, 2015, 03:37:05 AM »
Oh hell, might as well add my 2 cents..

I use kite leader line. It's 1/8" Dyneema/Spectra.  There is no line more cut proof. It's a bitch to cut even with good scissors. The problem with Marlowe is it does cut.

Quite frankly, for most people the line fails, so just switching to kite leader line is a priceless upgrade.

Then we can talk about the sketchy leash plugs out there. Most are not glassed over, so no matter how good the foam they are set it, they can still be ripped out if the foam or epoxy bond fails. So use glass over plugs for some extra free insurance. BTW, lots of plugs in the thread that are not glassed over.

Then switch to corecell foam instead of divinycell. It's stronger and only pennies more.

I do all this and stick with one plug.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 03:39:00 AM by DW »

spookini

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Re: Two leash plugs - how to rig the cords?
« Reply #54 on: February 27, 2015, 05:57:15 AM »
What I like is that everybody admits that it's really no big deal, but it highjacked one thread and filled up four pages on this one so far.

STAY ON TOPIC, GODDAMMIT!!   ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 06:05:53 AM by spookini »
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J-Bird

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Re: Two leash plugs - how to rig the cords?
« Reply #55 on: February 27, 2015, 09:40:09 AM »
I gotta agree with Bill, its no big deal until your swimming for a long time, then all of a sudden it IS a big deal.  Interesting conversations nonetheless.

supdiscobay

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Re: Two leash plugs - how to rig the cords?
« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2015, 11:06:32 AM »
I think one reason for 4 pages is that most of us have taken that long swim, and we don't want to do it again.  For me it was big Steamer Lane at middle peak on my favorite longboard.  Should have been on a long shortboard.  Single leash plug, using big wave leash.  It was one of those days where there were 100+ scattered from cowells out to middle peak.  I was hanging outside with only about 5 others, mostly on guns.  Bombs were dropping all day, and we were waiting for them.  Caught a couple of solid DOH+ waves and then started hanging inside a bit more.  Getting greedy.  The left was really good.  Of course tripleOH set cleans us up.  I had a long underwater ride on the first wave.  Started to float up, and just when I thought I would break the surface, got rolled again.  Felt the board yank hard and then let go.  Started to panic a bit, then remembered to just relax and go with it.  Got a good breath before the third wave.  By the fourth wave I was getting worried, so I dove down deep and minimized it.  Still got rolled but came up pretty quick.  When the set was over I was still really far out. At the Lane, on a big day, it is tough to paddle out at the main stairs.  Coming in can be even more difficult.  So I was swimming down to the stairs by the surfer statue, at indicators.  I had an idea where my board was, but was hoping I was wrong.  Finally got in and I had the complete leash and the leash loop still attached to the plug.  I came up the stairs, and started to look for my board, which was exactly where I didn't want it to be.  On the rocks.  It took awhile to figure out how to get to it, but I was able to there and of course it was destroyed.  In the time it took to swim in, it was bashed on the rocks for at least 20 minutes.
My point is, at places like Kanaha or outer reefs, the swim is longer, but you will likely have a board with minimal damage.  In California, rocky shorelines and heavy shore pound can destroy a board in minutes.  The other thing that scares me about a long swim in Hawaii is the wildlife.  I don't want to take a long swim or destroy an expensive board and will do anything that can minimize that from happening.  So keep the great reccomendations coming. 
8'5" Starboard Pocket Rocket, 8'0" Kazuma Fugu custom,  8'10" Kings Sidewinder, 10' Starboard Noserider, 14' BARK Carbon Dominator, SIC F16 V3, KeNalu and Quickblade paddles, 19' Eaton Prone, 67" Goode 9700

Bean

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Re: Two leash plugs - how to rig the cords?
« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2015, 11:46:20 AM »
I use kite leader line. It's 1/8" Dyneema/Spectra. 

Dyneema and other synthetics have virtually replaced steel cable in off-road recovery gear. But there are some drawbacks.  It does not do well under UV or heat it actually begins to break down at 150 degrees.   And while Dyneema is cut resistant, it is not very abrasion resistant.

PonoBill

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Re: Two leash plugs - how to rig the cords?
« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2015, 12:00:13 PM »
Lots of choices. Mostly polyethylene-based lines now have a polypropylene wrapper and a UV coating. That's why it's best to use a brand name, the stuff is hard to make and a lot of the cheaper stuff is less reliable.

Marlowe is a brand, they make all kinds of rope, even steel. I guess, like Xerox, the name has become synonymous with coated and braided UHMPE rope, but they produce a lot of stuff.

I forgot to answer the rest of Warren's questions. I don't wear a PFD, but I wear a camelback that I've used as a floatation device. In many ways it's better--I can swim with it, in some ways it's worse--you have to inflate it and keep it inflated. But it works. I attach my leash to the camelback with two attachments made from spectra kite leader. The camelback is actually more secure than a web belt. Three buckles would have to break for it to detach from me. If that happens, I probably want it gone anyway.

I carry my cellphone in a lifeproof case, inserted into a Sea to Summit case with a lanyard attached to the camelback.

Here's some pics for anyone who might be as averse as I am to swimming for miles unaided:



An evolution of sorts. First was a belt camelback with a belt PFD attached. Then suspender-style PFD with a waist camelback rivetted on. This was actually pretty good but no easy way to have music. Then the current favorite which has a mesh shoulder pocket my phone and it's double cases can fit into. I can hear music from the phones speakers just fine. The camelback has a swim loop for the paddle, and if it's inflated even with a fair amount of water still in it it gives floatation in the middle of my body, which makes swimming easier.




You might not be able to see this, but the duct tape on the railsaver is to keep the spectra line I use to back up the swivel from tangling. There's a stainless steel safety carabiner and a light aluminum one as backup.


The current crop of leashes waiting to be stretched to death. I'll actually start a database of failure locations and load at failure with this crop. I need a better scale to do that--on order. The Ke Nalu leash cuffs suck toads by the way. I thought the only problem with the racing leashes we made were the non-stainless clamping tube the knucklehead manufacturer substituted for the spec'ed material. But no, the velcro is poor quality and fails. I have 350 of these that we decided not to sell. I'll be destroying the remainder when I get back to Hood River.





I specified two leash plugs when I ordered my current 17' V1 Bullet. It also has two additional leash plugs for loop-carrying the board with a paddle threaded through the loops. I can also use those attachments for leashes.

It's a big deal to me, I've done two very long swims in my life, once on a Maliko and once at Manzanita, OR. when I lost my windsurfing rig much further out than a Maliko run. Took me most of the afternoon to reach the beach. Fortunately I've always been fat or I would have had worse hypothermia. As it was I shook for an hour in a hot shower. The "benefit" is that I know I can do it, and I'll just keep plugging. The issue is that I never want to do that again, but I don't want to stop playing.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 12:43:14 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

RATbeachrider

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Re: Two leash plugs - how to rig the cords?
« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2015, 01:13:20 PM »
I'm glad to be on shorter and lighter boards and surfed breaks no more than 200/300 yards from the beach.

 


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