Author Topic: Whats so bad about PFDs?  (Read 41142 times)

Kaihoe

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Whats so bad about PFDs?
« on: February 01, 2015, 03:40:06 PM »
OK so I'm not the most safety conscious paddler, I only take one on long solo training runs or on races that require them. And my leash tends to only go on the race board when  I'm out by myself..... personally I find the things uncomfortable and annoying, but that is an excuse

A few things like recent conversations here and our bad summer for water safety have got me thinking.

Whats the big deal with having to wear a PFD? And I do mean wear, not stick it on your board.

Sure leashes attach us to a much better form of floation and should also be legally required. But the do break/slip off (DJ had a scarey post a couple of years back involving a broken leash, flying board and a channel bouy). 

How many of us end up in situations where  a broken leash could mean some serious trouble. And anyone on this forum is likely to be pretty competent on the water.

I'm not talking about the surf zone here. Just general use.

PonoBill

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Re: Whats so bad about PFDs?
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2015, 04:03:58 PM »
Oh dear, one more time around the bush. Seriously you could read the old posts and see everyone's opinion.

Nothing is wrong with it other than you can't swim well with the things on. Its also harder to get back on the board with a life jacket on. That's NEVER been the issue for me--or for most people. The issue is that the regulation is stupid, dangerous, and typically bureaucratic. The regulation says you need to have one on your board or person. So people paddle out into the middle of frigid rivers with a life jacket tied to the nose of their board, and no leash.

That's what the regulation says is fine. and that's what happens. I see it every day, all summer long in Hood River.

On the other hand, I always wear a leash, I wear a camelback that I can blow air into in the unlikely event my leash breaks, and I can swim from one bank to the other in boardshorts and a T-shirt (albeit slowly), and I've been fined three times for non-compliance.

I, and many other people that like big waves here on Maui--are starting to wear impact vests that have substantial float but don't restrict your movement and permit you to get back on your board relatively easily.  We do that in the surf zone, where there is no requirement for a lifejacket. Which is a good thing because if I wore that same impact vest with float in a place subject to the regulation it would be illegal. I'd have to wear a PFD on top of it.

To sum up: PFD, good, regulation, bad.

« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 04:06:19 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Kaihoe

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Re: Whats so bad about PFDs?
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2015, 04:20:43 PM »
Thanks for the clear reply Bill.

Yeah I could have searched the forum and found some stuff, but the purpose of my post was to test the current temperature of opinion.   

There seems to be a general attitude towards PDFs + SUP is a bad idea (in the wider community not just here).  Rather than specific issues with specific regulations.

BTW down here there is a move to require PFDs to be worn on all small vessels rather than carried.. driven more by stupid fishing accidents.   Right now we are in a probably worse situation where the law requires PFDs but it is blatantly ignored by everyone.

SeaMe

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Re: Whats so bad about PFDs?
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2015, 04:32:47 PM »
I'd say the problem with PFD's in a nutshell is that the government takes a OSFA approach. The common sense PFD/leash requirements for SUS / SUP / Whitewater / Yoga / Whatever-type-I've-forgotten are different from on another and from other craft (kayaks, canoes, etc), but current regulations really don't take that into consideration.

I don't mind wearing a belt PFD, but I'm of the opinion that in an emergency it would be of limited help. The leash is far more important IMHO.
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hbsteve

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Re: Whats so bad about PFDs?
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2015, 08:22:52 PM »
Some of this is probably an age factor.  I grew up in Newport Beach a long time ago.  Before we could take sailing lessons, we had to prove we could swim.  We also had to jump into the water with a t-shirt on, get it off and get out of the water.  I wasn't allowed to go on my Dad's best friend's boat to Catalina Island until I could swim a certain distance and tread water for a period of time.
Now all the kids under a certain age, 12?, have to wear pfd. sailing small boats in the harbor. 


supthecreek

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Re: Whats so bad about PFDs?
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2015, 08:32:32 PM »
What's bad, IMO, is that it is a regulation. Period.
It starts with one tiny regulation, and pretty soon there's a stack of them.

I am tired of the noose tightening around my neck.
The government has this ever increasing push to save me from every thing.... they treat us like idiots, which... sometimes I am.
But so what? I still believe that we are more capable than the government, to decide how to conduct our own lives.

If I were paddling offshore, I would chose to wear one.
Paddling in the safety of calm estuaries, I chose not to wear one... and never have.

The very idea that the PFD can be taped to your board proves the idiocy of the regulators. Form over substance. They are going to save me?

pdxmike

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Re: Whats so bad about PFDs?
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2015, 09:31:19 PM »
A few reasons (some similar to ones others have said):
--wearing one is uncomfortable.  My belt pfd isn't bad, but worse than nothing, especially in summer
--it gets in the way of wearing a belt hydration pack, meaning I have to either wear the pfd in front, where it is more uncomfortable, or use a backpack hydration pack, which I do not do in summer because I don't wear a shirt when it's sunny, and the back hydration pack chafes and gives me a weird tan, and the hydration pack does a lot more for my safety than a pfd
--it serves no safety purpose the vast majority of the times I wear it
--I resent having to spend almost $100 for something that's useless most of the time for me
--I resent knowing that if I go out without one, I can't relax if I see a patrol boat, and I risk a large fine that's similar to what I'd get for doing something really dangerous, like running a red light or speeding recklessly in a car


Then here's the really serious one, more related to the regulation than to my personal use of one:
--I am convinced the regulation has led to deaths, because it takes the emphasis away from a) wearing a leash, which IS effective for safety,  b) learning how to swim, which IS effective for safety, and c) using your head to judge your abilities against the conditions vs. thinking if you meet the law you're safe, which IS effective for safety


I resent that people have died because the Coast Guard will not address this realistically, and I guarantee more people will die, and I think of that when I wear mine (which I do 99% of the time ONLY to avoid a fine). 


HPWA Jack

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Re: Whats so bad about PFDs?
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2015, 11:15:58 AM »
WOW, Mike.  You are my official alternate spokesman from here on.  I'm sending you to the next meeting.  Please explain your position to 1. Chairman of the Prevention through People subcommittee, Chris Stec (also COO of ACA) of the National Boating Safety Advisory Council to the United States Coast Guard.  2. Jeffrey Hoedt, civilain employee of the USCG, in charge of the National Recreational Boating Safety Program.

Philosophically speaking;  The courts and the bureaucracy have take the safety ball and run with it in America, while the European model is that one must take responsibility for thier own safety.  Seat belts, helmets, coffee temperatures, and life jackets replace the individual responsibility to determine the best safety device available for the risk of any given daily choice.

Technically speaking;  LEO is the govt acronym for law enforcement officers.  Fear based enforcement of safety regulations is when a cop requires you to comply with a regulation.  BTW, fines are not regulated at the federal level, and neither are cops.  One cop wants to enforce his authority and goes too far.  He loses in court and his jurisdiction in Nevade pays a settlement over fifty thousand dollars.  In the mean time, the Orange County Sheriffs running harbor patrol will occasionally ticket or warn a mom or dad with a small child on a human propelled vessels with no pfd

Politically speaking:  The community of the professional safety culture is made up of professional bureaucrats in DC and in all of the states, the manufacturers of boats, manufacturers of safety equipment (beware the power of Mustang and thier military contracts), and a few associations involved in boating safety instruction.  When I say boats, I mean every type of power and sail boat used for pleasure.  There is a single individual in this decision making system who is professionally representing human propelled boating safety.  I am an outsider.  I don't think the esteemed member who represents the PFD manufacturers likes me very much.  She does like the PtP chair.

Practically speaking:  USCG staff recognizes thier responsibility to protect lives and the integrity of the system.  These are two different things.  Some of them realize that identifying risk by oar or paddle is an outdated way to classify boats.  PtP and NBSAC, being dominated by power and sail people who do not know or care about "paddlecraft", are reluctant to redefine the way kayaks are regulated.  That is where the division must be drawn, as they do not want to write special legislation for SUP.  It is already outdated anyway, because every big box sporting good store in America is stocking yak boards.

The buoyancy argument:  My sugestion was stillborn, as everyon assumes that I want to take PFD's off the table.  This community relies on, "PFD's have the ability to save lives."  All of the rest of the intelligent conversation on the subject is lost on them until and unless they can be forced to deal with it.  A buoyant kayak does not require special equipment to remount and make ready to return to operable status like canoes, rowboats, and sit inside kayaks.  You just get back on and paddle.  Same for wave ski, surf ski, OC 1, yak board, and SUP.  Leashes threaten their most basic safety touchstone.

The functional problem:  Until and unless the manufaturers and associations get behind HPWA or what HPWA has started, the PFD continues to reign as the royalty of safety through regulation and subsidy.  If anyone wants to carry this flag, let me know.  I have to go back to a real job and pay some bills.  It is damn hard to put a successful non profit together when you have lots of support.  Mostly, at least in So Cal, people think and actually say it is no longer an issue.

When the PtP resolution passes the staff review, the public comment and finally validates the 2008 memo, you may expect additional pressure to be brought to the regulation of stand up paddleboards.

Maybe you now understand why my comments occasionally touch on soured fruit. 

BTW, I personally agree after a whole lot of conversation with others and intropection based on observations in flatwater SUP use that PFD's have a very important role to play in the self-regulation of SUP safety.  The right device(s) for the risk of the day's float plan.  I don't mind my belt pack much anymore.  But, when heading into open water, I learned the hard way to wear my leash also.  It was a long swim the day I was training and my partner didn't look back for me.  Wind and current in opposition.  I was laughing at myself and trying to save my hat.  Once it got going, the wind showed me how fast my board really was.

Jack

PonoBill

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Re: Whats so bad about PFDs?
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2015, 01:05:24 PM »
People believe that PFD regulation will save lives and that the coast guard and other bodies are looking out for their welfare. Why intelligent people who understand the fundamental selfishness of their own motivations would think like that is simply beyond me. Regulation is about money and power.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

HPWA Jack

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Re: Whats so bad about PFDs?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2015, 10:29:19 AM »
BTW, I don't know if I mentioned about the freebies.

Last season, State of California Boating and Waterways, a division of State Parks, set up tents at most of the major SUP race events.  At those tents, they gave away Mustang inflatable belt pack pfd's.  When those were gone, they gave away vests.

The Mustangs sell for $ 125 at West Marine.  I don't think California paid the tab, or at least not all of the tab to outfit and staff a van and spread the free inventory.  Other states got the same program.

I wonder how much money is involved?

In 2013, five people drowned in SUP related events.  All different ages.  only two were on rented boards.  I asked to see the reports, but I never got them.

So, what's so bad about PFD's?  I am not sure I have an answer, but I don't wear one on my boat.  I just comply with the law, unless I see an issue.  Sailing off shore, PFD aint near good enough, I use a harness and I clip in. 

I suppose I should use one, or clip in when sailing solo in the SF Bay, but I never have.
I see some single handers dragging a long line, imagine trying to grap a rope as your boat sails away without you.

How many people have ever intentionally fallen off the board to practice a self-rescue?  Try it sometime.  You may be surprised, particularly after a wicked workout.

pdxmike

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Re: Whats so bad about PFDs?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2015, 10:59:48 AM »
I hope no public money went to the pfd giveaway, esp. for the Mustangs.   It sounds like a misguided approach--people don't buy pfds or wear them because the law requiring them is stupid, so the solution is to set up a program to give them away instead of fixing the law?  Certainly there's a use for the belt pfds--they're great when you're in conditions where you do want a pfd--but the giveaway sounds silly.


In regard to intentional falling, I fall enough without trying I've never fallen on purpose.  I do know my first downwinder was in very tough conditions (at least for me) and I fell at least several dozen times within a couple hours, and was very getting very tired, but never had any problem getting back up, even with the waves flipping my board all over the place.  On the other hand, I've intentionally capsized my kayak to practice getting back in, and it's extremely difficult and tiring to do more than a few times.  And if I hadn't seen a video on how to do it, I never would have managed.  In fact the video started by the film crew going out and asking kayakers if they'd ever practiced getting back in ("no" in almost all cases) and how long they thought it would take ("a minute", "a couple minutes" etc.) and nobody could get back in no matter how long they were given--except for the one or two who'd got training and had practiced.  Falling from a SUP is entirely different than falling from a boat, as you've written about before.

HPWA Jack

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Re: Whats so bad about PFDs?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2015, 12:02:43 PM »
I would like to refer you to the Advocacy board for more comments

But, yea, self-resuce drills don't mean much to the people that are on this board.  We are down winders, surfers, and racers.  Not a lot of beginners here.

But, next time you talk to a beginner think about suggesting one.  And, when its nice, unhook your leash after a workout, fall backward, and chase your board.

The inconvenience of chasing your board won't touch the fact that as water people, we hold our breath, blow out our noses, and don't freak if we get disoriented.  This skill must be learned.  You have to plan to fall safely.

Anyway, more back over on the SUP Advocacy section.

UKRiverSurfers

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Re: Whats so bad about PFDs?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2015, 12:10:33 PM »
I wear one.. In the UK there is no law that says i must.

I use it mostly because it has a camelback pocket and pockets at the front for various bits of kit.

There are time when it is not appropriate, but on the whole, i have mine on.
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PonoBill

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Re: Whats so bad about PFDs?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2015, 12:24:53 PM »
It's great that you don't have a stupid law. PFDs aren't the problem, boneheaded regulation is the problem in the US.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

hbsteve

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Re: Whats so bad about PFDs?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2015, 01:17:47 PM »
I used to drag a line behind a 26' sailboat off Newport Beach when I wanted to go swimming.  Yeah,in the ocean.  One time I made the mistake of putting the line on the lee side.  When I grabbed the line, the drag made the boat head down wind and gain speed.  Young, strong, light breeze and a will to make it back all helped.  I didn't need to do that again.
Putting the line on the windward side made the boat head into the wind and stop, or at least slow down.


 


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