Author Topic: Seeking some expert opinions...permitting for a lake front house.  (Read 5143 times)

stoneaxe

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I've had a dream home in mind for a long time (going on 30 years... ::)). A semi-underground house (super-insulated garage on top) with passive and active solar on a piece of property that would lend itself to that construction (hill side). Now I've found what looks like a great piece of property except for the existing dump that would need to be demoed. I've also heard the permitting in Plymouth is a nightmare and I suspect it would be especially so near the water. If I can get this at the right price though it just might be possible.
I know its different everywhere but any insight would be good.
Here's the property.
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/122-Black-Cat-Rd-Plymouth-MA-02360/57546535_zpid/
Bob

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pdxmike

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Re: Seeking some expert opinions...permitting for a lake front house.
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2014, 10:42:57 AM »
Wow...anything on water in the NW costs way more than that.  So...I just bought it.  Thanks for the heads up!


Seriously, if it's anything like our communist state here, there can be special zoning and development rules overlaid on top of the standard regulations, due to being on the waterfront.  So check those out.  Also check if there are any private CC&Rs (not likely unless something's in an obvious private subdivision, but I've had clients buy property where even the title company missed those).  Make offer contingent on being satisfied you can obtain permits for doing what you want.  Sometimes people don't, because it can make your offer less attractive than someone who doesn't have that condition, but it's a risk.  Also check if there is any flood designation, need for flood insurance, etc.--esp. since what you want to build is low on the site (although looks like no lower than lowest floor of current house.


Also, since you want to do something new, if you do buy it, before you tear it down, make sure you're not screwing yourself out of "grandfathered" rights that the existing house may be giving you (i.e. old house may be legal as is, so you could extensively remodel it, but if you tore it down, the new structure would have to meet current setbacks, etc. which might be stricter. 


Looks like a crummy house on a nice lot.  That's exactly what I bought--only way I could afford river-area property.  (If habitable) it gives you something to use/live in/enjoy while you're figuring out how to afford to build the dream house.  Plus if you don't build right away, you have a chance to experience the site before you commit to the new design. 

standuped

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Re: Seeking some expert opinions...permitting for a lake front house.
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2014, 10:52:40 AM »
  Also  if you do buy it, before you tear it down, make sure you're not screwing yourself out of "grandfathered" rights that the existing house may be giving you (i.e. old house may be legal as is, so you could extensively remodel it, but if you tore it down, the new structure would have to meet current setbacks, etc. which might be stricter. 
Very good advice.  x2
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Bean

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Re: Seeking some expert opinions...permitting for a lake front house.
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2014, 11:10:16 AM »
Great insight PDX!  In addition, it could be worthwhile talking to an attorney who regularly deals with local zoning and permit issues.  In the course of doing some renovations to an older home a few years ago, we found a great local attorney by reading recent zoning meeting minutes.  Without his help the project would have been sidelined for sure.

stoneaxe

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Re: Seeking some expert opinions...permitting for a lake front house.
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2014, 01:58:48 PM »
Great thoughts...I assumed I'd likely have to leave some small part of the existing structure to maintain "grandfather" status. One of the thoughts I have to possibly help with permitting is to minimize, actually reduce the environmental impact of the property, less bedrooms, further from the shore, etc.. Biggest issue is budget....we're trying to do a few things at once and adding this will stretch things to breaking so not sure I can do it unless things were to go smoothly. Good idea on finding a local attorney to discuss it.
Bob

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TallDude

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Re: Seeking some expert opinions...permitting for a lake front house.
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2014, 02:35:47 PM »
It's a game I play with every house I design. There are only a few empty lots left along the beach in SoCal. We have California Coastal Commission to deal with and big taxes. The house I'm currently designing is a total rebuild, but I'm leaving one wall about 40' long, and part of the existing slab in order to call it a remodel. The reason is purely to retain your tax base. Say you've owned the home for 15 years. Back then you paid $ 400K for it. Your taxes might be $4K a year. The existing house is 2000 sf. If I tear most of it down and just leave a wall, the county considers it a remodel. If I then build a 3500 sf house, I will pay taxes on 1500 sf addition plus overall improvements. The taxes may go up to $6500 a year. If I demo the house completely, I have to re-grade the lot and the taxes will be based on the what comps are selling for in the neighborhood. The house below the one I'm designing just sold for $1.2 mil. So your taxes will be around $12,K a year! I always try to call it a remodel, even though they are essentially a new home.   
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pdxmike

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Re: Seeking some expert opinions...permitting for a lake front house.
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2014, 03:12:55 PM »
Here, they've rewritten the rules to include several thresholds based on % or area, % of assessed value, etc. so your remodel counts as a new house and has to meet the new house regs if you exceed those.  My advice is talk to the jurisdiction--zoning and building, since that's free.  Then talk to a real estate lawyer, and you'll have some specific questions for him.  Then go back to the jurisdiction and ask about anything the lawyer mentions.   You can also talk to architects, home designers or builders in the area.  The knowledge that any one of those groups (and everyone within the group) has varies a lot, especially if it's a small locale. For instance, TallDude just told you things I bet a lot of lawyers or other designers in his area might miss.  I regularly do things the zoning people here initially say I can't do, because they don't even know the code that well themselves.  You can also just ask neighbors, or anyone nearby with a new house.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 03:16:30 PM by pdxmike »

TallDude

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Re: Seeking some expert opinions...permitting for a lake front house.
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2014, 04:08:13 PM »
Every city and jurisdiction is different. Most the cities I deal with require you meet all the new building and zoning codes with these remodels, but the county reviews and assesses the taxes, not the city. The city basically views it as a new home, where the county assessor just sees added living space. The fire department views it as a new home as well, so you are required to install fire sprinklers.
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spookini

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Re: Seeking some expert opinions...permitting for a lake front house.
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2014, 05:11:32 PM »
I dunno...
Seems like the last guy who bought it (May 2013) got a MUCH better deal  ;).
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lucabrasi

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Re: Seeking some expert opinions...permitting for a lake front house.
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2014, 06:11:06 PM »
They don't show any picture of the inside do they, must be pretty bad but I might look at putting your new stuff right there against the existing home. Looks like you might drive right into the garage there in the 4th photo. then fix up the existing for who knows how long.
On the water I not sure how you could go wrong at that price.

supthecreek

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Re: Seeking some expert opinions...permitting for a lake front house.
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2014, 06:51:52 PM »
Just so long as I still get the couch... I say go for it. I won't wake you as I slip out the slider for a pre-dawn paddle.

Just remember.... when you are dealing with the egomaniacal local building inspectors.... they refuse, in many cases, to give "advice" or suggest anything. They say "bring me a plan"... very difficult when you are in the buying process.... the top local real estate lawyer is your best bet.

That lot looks perfect for your dream house! I think it's a fantastic idea.

Just remember, you are trying to vastly improve a rundown property, to make an eco friendly house..... they should be advancing this type of repurpose.... and give you incentives to do it, such as tax breaks and energy credits.

TallDude

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Re: Seeking some expert opinions...permitting for a lake front house.
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2014, 07:58:16 AM »
Historically registered homes can be good and bad, depending on what you are trying to do with it.
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supdiscobay

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Re: Seeking some expert opinions...permitting for a lake front house.
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2014, 08:43:02 AM »
  Also  if you do buy it, before you tear it down, make sure you're not screwing yourself out of "grandfathered" rights that the existing house may be giving you (i.e. old house may be legal as is, so you could extensively remodel it, but if you tore it down, the new structure would have to meet current setbacks, etc. which might be stricter. 
Very good advice.  x2


It's a game I play with every house I design. There are only a few empty lots left along the beach in SoCal. We have California Coastal Commission to deal with and big taxes. The house I'm currently designing is a total rebuild, but I'm leaving one wall about 40' long, and part of the existing slab in order to call it a remodel. The reason is purely to retain your tax base. Say you've owned the home for 15 years. Back then you paid $ 400K for it. Your taxes might be $4K a year. The existing house is 2000 sf. If I tear most of it down and just leave a wall, the county considers it a remodel. If I then build a 3500 sf house, I will pay taxes on 1500 sf addition plus overall improvements. The taxes may go up to $6500 a year. If I demo the house completely, I have to re-grade the lot and the taxes will be based on the what comps are selling for in the neighborhood. The house below the one I'm designing just sold for $1.2 mil. So your taxes will be around $12,K a year! I always try to call it a remodel, even though they are essentially a new home.   

PDX and Talldude nailed the two key points. I left up one wall and the foundation when we "remodeled".  It happened to be the wall where all of the electrical and plumbing came up, and it saved us some $.  We extended the foundation to add 1st floor footage.

Don't know what taxes are like in Mass, but in Cali, you can get hammered for new construction.
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PonoBill

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Re: Seeking some expert opinions...permitting for a lake front house.
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2014, 08:52:10 AM »
pretty funny that its trending as one of the most visitied in the neighborhood--you did that with this posting. that might firm the price up a bit.

I'd have the same piece of advice as some of the others--don't view it as a teardown. If you do it's an expensive lot, not a cheap house that's where you want it to be. Id make a lowball cash offer for the place and see what happens. Like really low--maybe 100K.  But make it for a limited time so they won't view it as a backup offer.  Fve days to accept and escrow. they can still bolt out of escrow, but they probably wont. If its as nasty inside as I assume it is, then it's not a bargain as a house.

Then do the deferred maintenance on the outside and a lightweight remodel to make it livable. Move in and find out if this really is the place your dream home should be. Most people build their dream home and then find out all the stuff they didn't like about where they sited it. Our house in portland was spectacular, great views, short commute, private, gorgeous house, huge shop, huge garage, gym, sport court, blah, blah, but we sold it and never looked back. Lots of reasons, most of which we would have figured out if we'd lived in a trailer there for a month.

It also looks like the bones are there for it to be a decent home as is. When you build your dream you'll find out all the reasons why no one builds houses like that. I'm not saying it isn't a great idea, but I've visited a LOT of people who built unique homes. They don't  often wind up living up to the dream. The happiest I;ve seen people with houses they built or bought are people who went very small, a house that barely fits their needs, but the resale value of that sucks because no one envisions that as a dream home.
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hbsteve

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Re: Seeking some expert opinions...permitting for a lake front house.
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2014, 11:12:28 AM »
There is a reason they don't show any interior pictures.  They don't want you to see the interior.   

 


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