Author Topic: Downwind boards on a lake. How absurd is that?  (Read 14040 times)

Area 10

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Re: Downwind boards on a lake. How absurd is that?
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2014, 05:35:37 PM »
SUPUK and Area 10 - I tried the Fatboy fin and didn't like it. Now to be fair it wasn't on a downwinder but I took it out on very small surf and for a paddle around the bay iin light winds. Straight away it felt like I was paddling slower than my tracker fin. I expected it to be slower but not as bad as that - the board felt sluggish. Now if it is like that on the flats it will most definitely be slower on the wave. You would need a decent swell and wind behind you to not notice the drag IMHO. 

Now...to be honest...when I first heard about using these types of fin I was very sceptical. I used to longboard and these types of fin were always used to slow the board down and provide hold...hence I never really thought they would work for me on a SUP. Yes they are stable and yes they turn but big no no on the speed thing. My other 10 inch longboard fin was still faster...but not as fast as my Jimmy Lewis tracker fin which is going back on.

I would still consider using one of the more standard race/downwind fins eg the Futures...but happy to stick with the stock fin...it suits the board...in time I will of course get the urge to change again ;)

I picked up the fin cheaper so no big loss. Worth a bash anyway 8)
We were recommending Squirrel-type fins for proper downwinding, not for general paddling, and least of all flat water.  So, with respect, you haven't really given the fin a fair chance. Try it back to back with eg. one of the specialist "downwind" fins on a couple of proper downwinders (25 knots or more) and then let us know your experiences. One thing you don't want on a DW fin is lots of tracking. You need to be able to move the board. Wide-based fins, or fins with a lot of rake, also make quartering wind and swell difficult. If your fin does not resist side to side movement of the board you will lose pace when downwinding, and be at the extreme will broach. The bulb of the squirrel-type helps with the hold necessary to maintain pace when linking bumps and riding them sideways.
In those circumstances I think of a fin not as providing "drag" but as giving "control". Nothing is slower than a DW board that is just getting pushed all over the place, with side to side movement introducing unwanted rail steer. The board wants to be flat on the water to achieve planing and able to be turned nimbly, not digging rails (except for deliberate turns) and wanting to track straight ahead regardless of where the bump is headed. A fin that has volume towards the tip but a narrow base will provide these positive features of turn-ability while maintaining an even keel and prevention of broaching. This will result in greater average speed in big downwind situations.

XLR8

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Re: Downwind boards on a lake. How absurd is that?
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2014, 06:20:18 PM »
SUPUK and Area 10 - I tried the Fatboy fin and didn't like it. Now to be fair it wasn't on a downwinder but I took it out on very small surf and for a paddle around the bay iin light winds. Straight away it felt like I was paddling slower than my tracker fin. I expected it to be slower but not as bad as that - the board felt sluggish. Now if it is like that on the flats it will most definitely be slower on the wave. You would need a decent swell and wind behind you to not notice the drag IMHO. 

Now...to be honest...when I first heard about using these types of fin I was very sceptical. I used to longboard and these types of fin were always used to slow the board down and provide hold...hence I never really thought they would work for me on a SUP. Yes they are stable and yes they turn but big no no on the speed thing. My other 10 inch longboard fin was still faster...but not as fast as my Jimmy Lewis tracker fin which is going back on.

I would still consider using one of the more standard race/downwind fins eg the Futures...but happy to stick with the stock fin...it suits the board...in time I will of course get the urge to change again ;)

I picked up the fin cheaper so no big loss. Worth a bash anyway 8)
We were recommending Squirrel-type fins for proper downwinding, not for general paddling, and least of all flat water.  So, with respect, you haven't really given the fin a fair chance. Try it back to back with eg. one of the specialist "downwind" fins on a couple of proper downwinders (25 knots or more) and then let us know your experiences. One thing you don't want on a DW fin is lots of tracking. You need to be able to move the board. Wide-based fins, or fins with a lot of rake, also make quartering wind and swell difficult. If your fin does not resist side to side movement of the board you will lose pace when downwinding, and be at the extreme will broach. The bulb of the squirrel-type helps with the hold necessary to maintain pace when linking bumps and riding them sideways.
In those circumstances I think of a fin not as providing "drag" but as giving "control". Nothing is slower than a DW board that is just getting pushed all over the place, with side to side movement introducing unwanted rail steer. The board wants to be flat on the water to achieve planing and able to be turned nimbly, not digging rails (except for deliberate turns) and wanting to track straight ahead regardless of where the bump is headed. A fin that has volume towards the tip but a narrow base will provide these positive features of turn-ability while maintaining an even keel and prevention of broaching. This will result in greater average speed in big downwind situations.

That's a really good description Area 10.  Makes me want to try a big Rainbow Fins retro cut out I have.  Wish I had a photo to share.  It was for a big longboard I had but I think it would work.
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coldsup

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Re: Downwind boards on a lake. How absurd is that?
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2014, 04:53:43 AM »
I'll hang on to it - promise that I will stick it in when I get to do a proper downwinder...whenever that might be!!

I can see how some of the design will have benefits but I ain't that convinced still...sceptic eh!

I still can't see how if these fins are so good that all the guys downwinding over the past xx years haven't been using them...surely they have tried everything going?






« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 04:56:29 AM by coldsup »

Area 10

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Re: Downwind boards on a lake. How absurd is that?
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2014, 10:52:37 AM »
I'll hang on to it - promise that I will stick it in when I get to do a proper downwinder...whenever that might be!!

I can see how some of the design will have benefits but I ain't that convinced still...sceptic eh!

I still can't see how if these fins are so good that all the guys downwinding over the past xx years haven't been using them...surely they have tried everything going?
SUP downwinding is very new. Maybe only 5 years or so. Most of the guys in Hawaii use rudders, which need to be a particular design. So no-one has really been experimenting that much with fixed DW fins. Most of the DW fins that have been marketed in the past are based on windsurfing notions of DW. But the dynamics of SUP are completely different. I only found that a squirrel was good almost by accident, because I'm a old longboarder. I have three boxes of longboard fins going back 30 years, and the squirrel was just about the only one I hadn't tried, after not really being satisfied with any that I'd tried, including the specialist DW SUP fins. So just to give it a go, I stuck it in and bingo! It gave me everything I wanted, much to my surprise. But once I started analysing it in the context of the other fins I have, it became obvious why it worked, and I kicked myself for not working it out before.

But fins are very personal things and different people want different things from them. So they won't suit everyone. However just in the last month or so alone, two people I know have switched to them (both with V2 Naish Glides) and say they are much better than the standard fins.

I am very lucky that I live in a windy place with lots of DW potential so I can try lots of different fins that I have collected over decades. Few people are in that position, or perhaps have the inclination to spend hours swapping fins back and forth. And I'm not sure that anyone *really* fully understands the dynamics of SUP DWing yet. It's such a new activity and our techniques, courses, and equipment are all changing so fast.

coldsup

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Re: Downwind boards on a lake. How absurd is that?
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2014, 11:30:55 AM »
Interesting post Area 10. I would love to rake round those boxes of yours......swapping fins can be either frustrating or good fun. Wish I still had that big hatchet I had.....would have stuck that in too!

komsup

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Re: Downwind boards on a lake. How absurd is that?
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2014, 12:16:38 PM »
my 11" dolphin is the thing on both the v2 naish glide & dart 14' when the wind pumps & the swell is running... control which translates to a "cruisy" ride & quicker times, for me at least.
Starboard Drive 10'5
SIC Bullet 17'4
Coreban Dart pro
Coreban alpha 12'6
previously Naish Mana 10', Fanatic Fly 14, Naish Hokua 9'3, Coreban Dart, Naish Glide 14 v2, Coreban lithium... & i still haven't found what i'm looking for...

coldsup

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Re: Downwind boards on a lake. How absurd is that?
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2014, 12:43:20 PM »
my 11" dolphin is the thing on both the v2 naish glide & dart 14' when the wind pumps & the swell is running... control which translates to a "cruisy" ride & quicker times, for me at least.

Can't go wrong with a decent dolphin fin.

 


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