Author Topic: Tetanus shot  (Read 19428 times)

Subber

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2014, 10:08:22 AM »
In terms of the vaccine nonsense, we had an outbreak of pertussis (whooping cough) at the school I work at. One of the kids had been vaccinated, but the other four did not. Pertussis is a serious disease that can be fatal in some cases. The vaccine is only about 75-80% effective too, so kids need to be immunized.

This would not have happened if those kids had received their shots. Please do so.

So finally we get a limitation on these vaccines - that this one only works 75-80%.
So, even if all those other kids were immunized, it is likely that some would have still gotten the disease -
20% to 25%.

So to demonize those who don't get vaccines for other reasons, limitations, and dangers doesn't really make sense.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 10:17:09 AM by Subber »
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Blue crab

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2014, 10:52:13 AM »
It is, however, fair to take folks to task who have strong opinions on things they do not understand.  Any sensible vaccine expert would admit that no vaccine is totally effective. Some vaccines such as measles & yellow fever are well above 95% while others like shingles are 50%.  The shingles vaccine is widely recognized as a mediocre vaccine (though much better than nothing at all). It is incumbent upon physicians to impart these data to patients and if they do not, then this is definitely a failure.

However, it is also the physician's responsibility to explain that the imperfect effectiveness of a vaccine such as pertussis is all the reason more to vaccinate.  Vaccines provide decent protection at the individual level, but provide additional significant  protection at the population level.   If there is a pertussis exposure in a school with a 90% vaccination rate, the pathogen will spread to very few kids (vaccinated and unvaccinated). The unvaccinated kids will be protected too.  If the vaccination rate is 25%, then nearly all of the unvaccinated kids will get sick and a fraction of the vaccinated too.  This is why measles outbreaks (sometimes with fatal results) are occurring throughout Europe: once the vaccination rate dips below 90%, there are enough unvaccinated kids for the virus to spread widely.

Therefore, when a subset of families make a decision to not vaccinate their children against preventable diseases, this can and does have larger deleterious effects on society. 

Ichabod Spoonbill

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2014, 11:39:10 AM »
Subber, I'm not demonizing you. However the breakout I'm discussing originated with unvaccinated families, so it's fair to say that the families who chose not to vaccinate their children made those children the vector which brought the disease into my school. It would most likely not have happened had those children been immunized.

Could you make the argument that a pertussis outbreak can happen with a vaccinated population? Perhaps, and I'm not a doctor, just an English teacher, but I think the chances of that are statistically very, very low.
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Subber

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2014, 11:55:16 AM »
Subber, I'm not demonizing you. However the breakout I'm discussing originated with unvaccinated families, so it's fair to say that the families who chose not to vaccinate their children made those children the vector which brought the disease into my school. It would most likely not have happened had those children been immunized.

Could you make the argument that a pertussis outbreak can happen with a vaccinated population? Perhaps, and I'm not a doctor, just an English teacher, but I think the chances of that are statistically very, very low.

I didn't mean to say You were demonizing anyone...but lots of people do on this subject.

But the discussion on vaccines has been far less than fair (not so much this forum but else where for sure).

There are a lot of downsides and there are a  lot of limitations for vaccines (and other medical treatments)
-they don't necessarily work 100% of the time as you indicated.
Sometimes the vaccination recipient gets the disease from the shot.
If there's not a perfect match - they dont' work - which is true for most flu shots.
It maybe a certain percentage of infants with weak immune systems have major problems with these vaccinations.
It goes on and on if you do the research.

Its just that people quote "science" and act like they are a slam dunk good - and it is not true.
That is why they try to bury those who question them - not you - but at least one poster on this thread did
- the guy really needs to get a clue.  "Science" is implemented by people who often have biases especially
if they can get big money out of it.

The medical industry has a very questionable track record of honesty, if anyone really takes a close
look at it.  We have thread on this site (a SUP site) that totally debunks the medical establishment/government food pyramid,
for example.

One of the recent largest scams is that high cholesterol causes heart disease - think Lipitor.
One poster on this forum pointed out that it turns out that only a portion of the socalled bad cholestrol (LDL)
may be a problem.  Discussion about cholesterol lowering drugs being the panacea was also
very one sided - not mentioning that they can give about 15% of the people that take them dementia,
and debilitate their muscles.

We are finding out more and more that the "scientific studies" are cooked. 
Of course, there is a huge amount of money involved - so we should be skeptical
and require a full discussion.  "Experts" are routinely bought and sold.

Lets just have a fair discussion (in general - here and elsewhere)
about both the positives and negatives and limitations of this medical stuff
before we say it slam dunk works and everyone should be forced to get it.
That's all I'm saying.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 12:01:27 PM by Subber »
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mrbig

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2014, 12:12:26 PM »
Bad Pharma by Ben Goldacre is a good read regardless of one's personal position on a very complex topic.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 12:25:44 PM by mrbig »
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hbsteve

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2014, 01:23:31 PM »
I always get amused at the warnings at the end of the TV commercials about all the bad side effects that can happen.  They talk about twice as fast as during the ad for the medication.  Death seems to be a common side effect for many medicines.

Subber

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2014, 01:39:04 PM »
I always get amused at the warnings at the end of the TV commercials about all the bad side effects that can happen.  They talk about twice as fast as during the ad for the medication.  Death seems to be a common side effect for many medicines.

Yup and I think a little quieter.

We were noticing that they show all these happy pictures when they say what the drug is supposed to do
for you...but when giving the warnings they don't show pictures of the horrendous possible side effects.
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mrbig

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2014, 02:59:28 PM »
And a couple of years later the lawyers are trolling for folks who were less than thrilled by the meds or devices that were FDA approved but somehow a little hazardous to one's health .. 8) 8)
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juandoe

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2014, 03:22:17 PM »
When a paradigm better predicts the natural world and supplants science, I will gladly endorse it.  In the meantime, I find science more reliable than foil hatters and luddites. 

In considering a medication, everyone should evaluate the risks and benefits to the best of their ability.   

Vaccines are a little different in that they impact all of society and their effectiveness is partially due to the herd effect.  An individual's decision affects everyone.  It is a "tragedy of the commons"  scenario. 

SeaMe

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2014, 04:44:17 PM »
Subber, I'm not demonizing you. However the breakout I'm discussing originated with unvaccinated families, so it's fair to say that the families who chose not to vaccinate their children made those children the vector which brought the disease into my school. It would most likely not have happened had those children been immunized.

Could you make the argument that a pertussis outbreak can happen with a vaccinated population? Perhaps, and I'm not a doctor, just an English teacher, but I think the chances of that are statistically very, very low.

She's not a doctor but she knows her stuff (from 2011):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFWBelim1Hw

The interviewer is a doctor, Joseph Mercola.
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Ichabod Spoonbill

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2014, 06:22:06 PM »
I did a little research on the speaker and she has been criticized pretty heavily by the American Associate of Pediatrics. Her organization has been instrumental in spreading the severely discredited claim that vaccines cause autism. Not that this is the final word, of course, but when I listen to her speak, she seems laser-focused on this specific issue, but also very discounting of any research or evidence that contradicts her.

The truth is, of course, that vaccines aren't 100% safe. Kids have adverse reactions from them, and Ms. Fisher's child seems to have had a serious one. It's one of those situations where people may chose what's safest for their own children while making, slowly and gradually, everyone else unsafe.

I think this one speaker is persuasive as a person, but I don't find her evidence against vaccines as in idea persuasive on a scientific level. Please show me studies where vaccines are more harmful to society than giving them and I'll be more convinced. Specifically, statistically we are much less likely to die of many diseases since vaccines were developed. Can you show scientific evidence that that is incorrect?

I'm not trying to provoke a fight here. What I want is more than an advocate. I want to see evidence that vaccines are harmful to society.
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Subber

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2014, 06:26:18 PM »
I did a little research on the speaker and she has been criticized pretty heavily by the American Associate of Pediatrics. Her organization has been instrumental in spreading the severely discredited claim that vaccines cause autism. Not that this is the final word, of course, but when I listen to her speak, she seems laser-focused on this specific issue, but also very discounting of any research or evidence that contradicts her.

The truth is, of course, that vaccines aren't 100% safe. Kids have adverse reactions from them, and Ms. Fisher's child seems to have had a serious one. It's one of those situations where people may chose what's safest for their own children while making, slowly and gradually, everyone else unsafe.

I think this one speaker is persuasive as a person, but I don't find her evidence against vaccines as in idea persuasive on a scientific level. Please show me studies where vaccines are more harmful to society than giving them and I'll be more convinced. Specifically, statistically we are much less likely to die of many diseases since vaccines were developed. Can you show scientific evidence that that is incorrect?

I'm not trying to provoke a fight here. What I want is more than an advocate. I want to see evidence that vaccines are harmful to society.

Did you check the scientific studies which said that of those who got whopping cough, the Majority had been vaccinated?

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Ichabod Spoonbill

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2014, 07:13:47 PM »
I'm not sure I follow, Supper. Do you have a link?

Are we taking specifically about the pertussis vaccine or vaccines in general?
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Subber

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2014, 07:23:44 PM »
I'm not sure I follow, Supper. Do you have a link?

Are we taking specifically about the pertussis vaccine or vaccines in general?

It was in the video SeaMe posted. The woman quotes two studies for whopping cough,
and a few others.

You should watch the whole thing.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 07:34:37 PM by Subber »
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SeaMe

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2014, 08:12:21 PM »
I did a little research on the speaker and she has been criticized pretty heavily by the American Associate of Pediatrics. Her organization has been instrumental in spreading the severely discredited claim that vaccines cause autism. Not that this is the final word, of course, but when I listen to her speak, she seems laser-focused on this specific issue, but also very discounting of any research or evidence that contradicts her.

It's a controversial viewpoint, and more importantly it stands to put a major kink in someone's bottom line. There are a number of doctors who agree with Fisher and mention specific studies to back her claims. It can seem very convenient to ignore studies that disapprove ones theory, but sometimes studies are discounted because of who they are funded by. Something that should be purely scientific is often influenced by the ones who hold the purse strings, and in many cases studies are funded by pharmaceuticals, a major conflict of interest.

The truth is, of course, that vaccines aren't 100% safe. Kids have adverse reactions from them, and Ms. Fisher's child seems to have had a serious one. It's one of those situations where people may chose what's safest for their own children while making, slowly and gradually, everyone else unsafe.

That's only true if you trust in the science of "herd immunity". There's proof that high rates of vaccination actually contribute to epidemics, but you're never going to hear that from the pharmaceuticals—vaccines are cash cows. One example: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-03-04/vaccines-may-have-increased-swine-flu-risk/1967508
A Whooping-Cough-specific article: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/12/10/whooping-cough-pertussis-vaccine.aspx

I think this one speaker is persuasive as a person, but I don't find her evidence against vaccines as in idea persuasive on a scientific level. Please show me studies where vaccines are more harmful to society than giving them and I'll be more convinced. Specifically, statistically we are much less likely to die of many diseases since vaccines were developed. Can you show scientific evidence that that is incorrect?

On Mercola's site he footnotes the studies and hyperlinks them at the bottom of the page:
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/04/26/vaccines-adverse-reaction.aspx#!
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