Author Topic: Tetanus shot  (Read 19427 times)

headmount

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Tetanus shot
« on: August 16, 2014, 12:36:51 PM »
The last time I got a tetanus shot was around the moon landing so when I went in for a full on poking and prodding physical, I answered, don't recall, when they asked when. 

Then I went for a run.  Arm was a little sore after the shot but nothing I couldn't ignore.  Was stoked to get out in the water after massive visiting by relatives with zero runs.  Started out great but after only a mile the arm suddenly got very sore and by the time I finished 10 miles, I could barely lift my arm.

So I don't recommend this. 

Next event will be massive flesh sizzling at the dermatologist.  The fun never stops

OCsurf

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2014, 01:19:26 PM »
Three and 1/2 years ago I had a flu shot and came down with a rare disease called Guillen Barre Syndrome.  I was completely paralyzed and it took over 1 year to recover.  Residuals from this disease are the reason that I took up stand up surfing over prone surfing.  I dont recommend the flu shot.  I have been told that I should not have a tetanus shot either.
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PonoBill

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2014, 06:05:30 PM »
Most if not all inoculations rile up your immune system. It's how they work. Sometimes it over-reacts and tries to kill important bits of you. For the most part it's lottery odds--you might have a little extra pain or swelling, or you might get headaches. Compared to the potential for tetanus, which has a mortality rate of about 40% in vaccinated but lapsed immunity and 60% in un-vaccinated, and is one of the most painful diseases known, recovery from which takes 6 to 8 months to regenerate nerve axons and recover from the typical total paralysis, a sore arm is pretty trivial. Mortality is higher in newborns and people over 60. That's you Boyum.

Worse yet is that people who have had Tetanus and recovered often believe they are immune. They aren't.

Read up on it--I did when my daughter started spouting nonsense about not getting her kids immunized. Bad shit happens to a tiny number of people who are immunized. Horrible shit happens to large numbers of people who aren't. You DON'T want tetanus. If you get it, it will run it's course, which means spasms so painful they often break bones.

If we ever have a real bird flu epidemic (and there's not a lot stopping that) it's going to kill more people than the black Plague. Really.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 06:09:50 PM by PonoBill »
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Gramps

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2014, 06:38:24 PM »
I didn't get vaccinated for Shingles; as of 5 days ago, I sure wish I had.

Blue crab

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2014, 07:56:19 PM »
I respond to this thread somewhat reluctantly as this is a paddle board blog which I occasionally read for leisure.  Moreover, whenever I weigh in on vaccines, I feel like a blowhard.

The fact is that other than clean drinking water, there is no public health intervention that has saved more human lives in the current era than vaccines, a fact which members of the anti-vaccine movement are typically unwilling to recognize.  This group happily neglects the fact that development and interpretation of vaccine trial data requires a multidisciplinary effort, involving hundreds of scientists.  Somehow, we live in a world where the medical opinions of Jenny Mccarthy, Jim Carey & Michelle Bachmann hold equal sway to those of immunologists, virologists, clinicians, epidemiologists, biostisticians and vaccinologists who spend decades carefully constructing vaccines and designing vaccine trials.  The idea that a cursory review of a bogus website somehow confers expertise on an incredibly complex topic reflects a strange form of arrogance, and is emblematic of some of our society's larger flaws.

Every licensed vaccine is carefully monitored for side effects, both in large clinical trials and in yearly surveys. All vaccines do have potential side effects, the vast majority of which consist of transient, local reactogenicity.  (Tetanus definitely leads to a sore arm).  Major side effects are quite rare and are typically far outweighed by the protective benefit provided by the vaccine.

It is equally important to recognize that vaccines provide herd immunity. By decreasing the amount of a circulating pathogen, vaccines protect the unvaccinated population. This concept explains how small pox was eradicated, and why large numbers of young children no longer get polio or meningitis each year in most parts of the world.

Another critical concept: temporal correlation is NOT causation.  Just because a vaccine is given 3 weeks before the 1st symptoms of autism, does not mean that the vaccine has anything to do with autism. In fact, hundreds of events, some noticed, some not, occur during this time frame.  More importantly, this time frame may not even be the most relevant .  A more distant exposure, or even more likely some factor related to host genetics, may predispose to the disease in question. The real way to assess whether a vaccine is safe, is not by relying on personal anecdotes, but rather by studying tens of thousands of vaccines and non-vaccinees, and comparing these groups in a careful and blinded fashion. This is a pre-requisite for licensure (though there are current ethical debates about whether the same standard should be necessary for Ebola.... probably not).

The same concept applies to Guillan Barre, which is no doubt a terrible and frightening disease.  There is sufficient reason to have a careful look for an association: the 1976 version of the swine flu vaccine was associated with a 1/100,000 increased incidence of Guillan Barre. This is a small number and it is not clear why it happened. Possibilities include 1) statistical noise, 2) unmasking of a predisposition to GB (in other words, the development of GB was inevitable at some point in these people and the vaccine provided a "spark") or 3) a true, otherwise avoidable era vaccine associated adverse event.  The CDC treated it like the latter and the vaccine is no longer used.  Current versions of the flu vaccine have saved millions of lives and not shown a statistical difference compared to unvaccinated cohorts in terms of Guillan Barre. While I empathize deeply with your suffering OCsurf, it is simply not responsible for you to dole out advice about the flu vaccine.

Finally, let me preempt any troll like responses espousing nonsense conspiracy theories that vaccine scientists are all in it for the money. Vaccines development is not terribly lucrative for drug companies, and almost any grade of scientist in the field could be making more money doing just about anything else. 

One day, there may be vaccines which protect against all strains of flu, malaria, TB &/or HIV.  If so, these will represent milestones of human achievement.

PonoBill

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2014, 08:21:00 PM »
Nice. Thanks. I may have that tattooed on my daughters arm.
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goodfornothin

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2014, 10:32:52 PM »


What a shame, throw out the road blocks to an important subject.  Calling people with alternative views trolls and conspiracy theorists (theres a funny story behind those guys, you would be hard pressed to find that descriptive term anytime before Kennedy was assassinated)

This blinded faith in Iscience and the money masters is an interesting paradigm, very hard to flush out the truth.
Im not arguing vaccs don’t have their place.  Ive treated and had kids die in my arms from such diseases as diphtheria among others, but having blind faith in them is quite frankly dangerous. 

Blue Crab “Vaccines development is not terribly lucrative for drug companies, and almost any grade of scientist in the field could be making more money  doing just about anything else. “

"In 2011, the US Federal government awarded 6 pharmaceutical corporations over 5.7 Billion to manufacture children’s vaccines alone"  http://vactruth.com/2012/11/30/2011-billions-vaccine-manufacturers/

That’s a lot of chicken scratch, how the heck are you vacc guys getting by? And that’s just the subsidies.

Lets take some fines a few companies have  paid, http://www.forbes.com/sites/larryhusten/2011/11/22/merck-pleads-guilty-and-pays-950-million-for-illegal-promotion-of-vioxx/
so theres a 950 million down the drain
heres a doozy, from the article below,
Company
   
Contract
   
Amount
Sanofi Pasteur    200-2011-38199    $1,142,400,000.00 [10]
GlaxoSmithKline    200-2011-38201    $786,456,400.00 [11]
Merck    200-2011-38200    $1,704,454,000.00 [12]
Novartis    200-2011-38204    $451,660,000.00 [13]
Pfizer    200-2011-38203    $1,652,570,000.00 [14]
MassBiologics    200-2011-38202    $11,250,000.00 [15]
      
Total
      
 $5,748,790,400.00

Are we sure there isn’t some type of corporate agenda?

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/11/04/big-profits-linked-to-vaccine-mandates.aspx
fantastic article, full of facts and numbers that should make people at least question this blind faith in these vaccs. I find this disgusting, not a medical marvel, the kids don’t need this type of exposure, 
 “The United States recommends more vaccines than any country in world. The CDC recommends 48 doses of 14 vaccines by age six, and 69 doses of 16 vaccines by age 18.”





 Blue crab  "Every licensed vaccine is carefully monitored for side effects, both in large clinical trials and in yearly surveys . All vaccines do have potential side effects, the vast majority of which consist of transient, local reactogenicity."

"Gardasil vaccine was fast tracked to licensure by the Food and Drug Administration in 2006.2 It contains genetically engineered virus-like protein particles (VLPs) and aluminum, 3,4,5 which affect immune function. 6,7,8 The exact mechanism of protection is unknown and the vaccine has not been evaluated for the potential to cause cancer or be toxic to the genes."
10  http://www.nvic.org/nvic-vaccine-news/july-2009/preventing-gardasil-vaccine-injuries-deaths.aspx

That’s just one, I don’t have the time to really dig, im sure we would find the same results.  I don’t think fast tracked is a word I would want paired with a studies concerning  vaccines, and it makes me question these large study groups.  Cancer is worse than warts in kids, especially with the numbers of injured kids.

Lets just add a last thought, this subject is highly political and used for tools of wealth grabs and nation destabilization.  Knowing this, and we all should.
 http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/05/20/white-house-says-cia-will-stop-using-vaccination-programs-as-cover-for/
 ,and they have been busted doing the same shit throughout the lower half of Africa as well.  These drug companies are owned by the same people who own the military industrial complex and our world banking cartels.  Just knowing that alone, puts me in the back seat wondering whats going on, money corrupts, period.  Whistle blowers have been spilling the beans for some time,
 http://nsnbc.me/2013/05/10/the-vaccine-hoax-is-over-freedom-of-information-act-documents-from-uk-reveal-30-years-of-coverup/
These companies are pushing half truths,  killing a lot of people (read up on Vioxx) and constantly paying fines. Whistle blowers are yelling from the roof tops, but I guess us guys with tinfoil hats can only hear the sirens?

PonoBill

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2014, 11:32:33 PM »
What does vioxx have to do with vaccines?
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Blue crab

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2014, 12:15:10 AM »
I am not going to try to go toe to toe with you on every last point as I know I am essentially wasting my breath.

1. I have no blind faith in science, though it is certainly more of a meritocracy than many other fields.  Of course, pharma is  prone to human error and greed.  Of course, corporate lobbyists have undue sway over our government.  Yet, there absolutely needs to be a relationship between government & pharma. Let me break it down for you.  Pharmaceutical companies are the only option for certain steps of the development process and manufacturing of vaccines.  You can't make this shit in your garage and it is way too expensive for academia.

However, the free market pushes pharma in a different direction. Vaccine development, i.e. R & D catered towards development of new vaccines, is in fact not lucrative relative to drug development. Vaccines are given 1-3 x per lifetime. Cholesterol lowering agents, beta blockers, viagra etc... are taken over decades.  This is why pharma proliferates "me too" drugs which provide marginal benefit for human health, particularly relative to vaccines.  On the other hand, new vaccines which progress from concept to market, are actually relatively rare.

To the extent that preventing spread of historically lethal infections is a priority, government has to subsidize some of this process, both within academia and pharma. If you think having no infrastructure to develop, evaluate & manufacture vaccines for emerging infections is just fine, then I'll just have to strongly disagree.  The 1918 flu epidemic which killed >2% of humanity occurred in a much less connected world than ours.

An even clearer example is antibiotics.   There are currently NO antibiotics in the pipeline to deal with emerging resistant bugs.  This is because antibiotics are given for a week and are not profitable.  Companies have no incentive whatsoever to develop these drugs and will not unless there is an outside push. Where else would you suggest that this push comes from other than the government?
 
2. You bring up Vioxx which is not a vaccine. What people at Merck did was criminal and they were taken to task. Every financial contract between government and business should be heavily scrutinized.  However, to assume that every such transaction is corrupt, is conspiratorial thinking.

3. Regarding the high number of vaccines given in the states, the more nuanced way to look at it would be to go vaccine by vaccine. I don't have the patience for this.  However, a rational review of most of the vaccines would reveal that they are providing a substantial benefit, both from a morbidity and economic point of view. 

To demonstrate that I in fact have an open mind about all of this, I should emphasize that I am actually against varicella vaccination for children in this country. The Euros don't do it and I think their reasoning is sound.  However, the argument is subtle and based on hard data and scientific concepts, not some vague vision of a grand corporate agenda.

4. Gardasil prevents specific types of HPV infection which are the overwhelming cause of cervical cancer which kills hundreds of thousands of women each year. The vaccine is a viral like particle (a viral package without its DNA) and is a near exact replica of HPV. It therefore induces a strong antibody response against the virus.  The replicating DNA is what is oncogenic, not the particle. 

SaMoSUP

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2014, 05:19:48 AM »
This is an interesting debate I always have during flu shot season. I don't take them. My thinking is it's a crap shoot since they can't predict which strain to vaccinate against. I've also thought that this was just a money maker for pharma.

To put into context the points quoted below, The total US pharmaceutical revenues in 2011 were over $300 billion. The $5.7 billion awarded is less than 2 percent of this. Is that lucrative or not?


Finally, let me preempt any troll like responses espousing nonsense conspiracy theories that vaccine scientists are all in it for the money. Vaccines development is not terribly lucrative for drug companies, and almost any grade of scientist in the field could be making more money doing just about anything else. 

"In 2011, the US Federal government awarded 6 pharmaceutical corporations over 5.7 Billion to manufacture children’s vaccines alone"  http://vactruth.com/2012/11/30/2011-billions-vaccine-manufacturers/

That’s a lot of chicken scratch, how the heck are you vacc guys getting by? And that’s just the subsidies...

Are we sure there isn’t some type of corporate agenda?


PonoBill

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2014, 05:44:19 AM »
Like most suddenly sprung debates on the web, (see what you started here Bill) people with opinions won't change theirs, so this is predominantly empty bytes.  For what it's worth, I went to the links provided. So really, goodfornothing. Your "fantastic article" is on Mercola, a guy shilling Miracle Whey for $144.97 and Krill Oil for 62.97. It's a real drumbeater, and my bullshit detector has rarely been spun so high. The author quotes low current infection rates for measles, mumps and rubella to support an inference that the vaccines are unnecessary. I'm old enough to remember when nearly every kid suffered those diseases. He posits obvious questions his proof arises (proof later) and then never answers the question.

I"m not a doctor, I'm a marketer. I used to bullshit for a living, and that's bullshit, top to bottom. The classic "tell everyone you know, share this everywhere" web meme of the traffic spammer.
   
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juandoe

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2014, 07:50:08 AM »
The inability for people to understand risk is amazing to me.  Clearly, it is not communicated in a fashion that most can understand.  Even in a hospital where young healthy people were literally dying of the flu (this past spring), we had NURSES refusing the vaccine.   We literally ran out of ECMO units.  Unfortunately, I can think of at least 3 that were pregnant women.  I believe one survived.     

headmount

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2014, 09:16:36 AM »
Like most suddenly sprung debates on the web, (see what you started here Bill)
   

My fault for not clarifying "this".  What I should have wrote was I don't recommend getting a shot and then paddling.  Paddling being the operative word here.  I wasn't expressing any opinion about vaccines.  I got a shot and that says how I feel about vaccines. 

It, the shot,  did leave a good knot in my arm but yesterday, paddling,  was just fine. 

PonoBill

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2014, 09:39:02 AM »
Fundamental ingrained human behavior. People judge risk in a phobic way. In general people have the greatest fears about things that affect a lot of people in a short period of time, about things that are immediate vs. long term, about things they don't understand or feel comfortable with (mysterious) and about things they have little control over. It's why people fear flying more than driving to the airport.
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Subber

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Re: Tetanus shot
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2014, 09:39:35 AM »
Blue Crab says, "... the free market pushes pharma in a different direction..."

To be truthful, it is not a "free market."  It is full of government-granted monopoly powers, huge government subsidies and
government forcing people to take certain of their products, etc.  It is far from a free market.

Also, to have a fairer discussion, both the positives and the negatives/downsides of vaccines should be disclosed/discussed.

As far as "science" - it is discovered/implemented by people who have failings. 

I think the point of vioxx and celebrex, etc. should be well taken - these guys are riddled with conflicts of interest and
are not to be trusted nor anything they promote to be taken at face value.  Of course, many of their products are
reasonable but many have proven to not be.  They are hugely conflicted - so user beware.

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