Author Topic: Technique vs. Fitness  (Read 6807 times)

pdxmike

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2014, 10:16:14 AM »
Follow what balance-fit just wrote.  The results might just surprise you.
Like others have said in different ways, it's a lot easier to get x% faster through improving your technique than through improving your fitness.  If you're already even moderately fit, getting 5% more fit will require substantial effort, whereas getting 5% more out of each stroke may not (or at least the effort won't be painful). 


In swimming, a lot of technique isn't to get you going faster, it's to slow down the rate at which you slow down.  Paddling, you might be losing 5% in speed just by not feathering your paddle well or standing too upright going into the wind.  Those are way easier to fix than getting 5% faster through strength training or cardio work.


My problem is what balance_fit warned about--my actual technique bears no resemblance to what my technique is in my head.  I think I'm bending until my back is almost parallel to the water, then someone tells me I'm almost upright. 



pdxmike

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2014, 10:39:01 AM »
Back to the original question of who wins more races, the other thing that comes into play is that there's a reason some people are more fit while others have better technique--their mindset.  My old swim coach divided his swimmers in his mind into "dogs" and "cats".  Dogs swim whatever set he gives them happily, then ask for more.  They're bored if they're not swimming hard.  Cats are physically lazy but mentally active.  They hate the work associated with grueling workouts.   But they come alive when they hear anything that might give them an advantage without making them breath hard.  They are totally focused on getting great starts and turns, pacing secrets, stroke technique tweaks, etc.  Generally, distance swimmers are dogs, and sprinters are cats.


He felt most people were combinations of the two in various degrees.  There were few pure dogs or cats, and also few who were were fully both.  The ones who were fully both were unbeatable. 


It's all a simplification, but the point is that if you're really wondering whether technique beats fitness or vice versa, you should think, "What created that focus in that racer?"  Someone with better technique may be the type who is also predisposed to race smarter--better at pacing, choosing the right board for the conditions, drinking smarter during the race, etc.  Someone who is mainly fit may be worse at those, but maybe better able to grind through bad conditions without wavering. 


So whether the person is skewed one way or the other is a clue to what's going on within them, and that's the part that may give them the advantage more than the surface qualities of technical skill or fitness. 

PonoBill

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2014, 10:39:05 AM »
But the combination of age and power to weight was enough to win the early races even up against extremely fit technique masters like Dave Kalama and Danny Ching. Today he's added more of the other two legs, though I bet he's going to still have some back problems pretty soon.

Funny you mention Dave and Danny. Over the past 30 days I took both of their clinics. I asked both of them this same question assuming competent paddlers at similar levels, so the Usain Bolt example is out. Danny would give the edge to the fittest person while Dave would take the person with better technique.

I ask this question because I'm trying to refine my training plan. I've worked a lot on stroke technique with clinics from two legendary paddlers within a month, plus 4-5x paddling and 3x surfing weekly. While I'm making some good progress I still feel like I'm coming up short in races to people who are more fit than I am but with not as good technique. I don't like it when I finish behind someone with bad stroke technique.

So now I'm dreading the thought of adding in more cardio work in the gym. I'd rather that time be spent paddling on the water.

If SUP racing was being fed from disciplined, professional training programs the participants would be concentrating primarily on well-developed drills. I suspect that one reason people show up from one tiny area of Australia and kick ass is because someone has instituted a disciplined and focused drill program.

In the USA sup race training is primarily an individual undertaking, with noted exceptions for young paddle development efforts like Big Winds in Hood River and Anthony Vela and Candace Appleby in SoCal.

You can undertake that kind of training yourself. Training with Dave and Danny is a fine start, but as Balance-Fit says, you'll wander back into old habits without monitoring and drills. Dave asked me to help him put together an online video training program to deal with some of the limitations Balance-Fit covered--you'd send him your videos on a regular basis and he'd send you analysis, corrections, and relevant video clips. We kind of started into it but Dave got distracted with things like having a life, shaping boards, doing K-Kamps and training himself. So don't expect anything soon. Dave has a lot of great ideas and some really crappy ones. I think the video idea was one of the good ones but was probably unsustainable.

Incidentally, drills suck. I can't think of anything more boring, but if you want to improve your catch, increase your power and efficiency, there isn't much in the way of options. If you get really strong at doing the wrong thing you won't get anywhere. I tried to do some drills this morning on my upwind/downwind run, but decided that my shoulder is a good excuse not to do them, and just paddled.

Incidentally, I think the Usain Bolt example is important. If you want to test the truth of an idea, look at the extremes. It won't always yield the right answers, but it's a start. There are thousands of SUP paddlers who are fitter, younger, have better power to weight ratios, and even perhaps a bit of specific training--and I (67, 245#, bad shoulders, no discipline) beat them regularly in races because I paddle a little better and can read the water better. That's not enough to get me to the front, but it's enough to keep me in the upper middle. In the early days, when my paddle training was advanced over most people (thanks, Dave) it was enough to get me close to the front.
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peterp

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2014, 10:44:23 AM »
Technique vs fitness - and I would add .......age. The dreaded age will affect both to the detriment of speed...I feel for Kalama, what he is achieving at his age is super-human, mind over matter out there for legends only kind of stuff.

Age slows you down, from the age of 25 your muscle power and reaction times start diminishing. Virtually neglible for many years, but once you hit mid to end 40'ies then it really starts becoming apparent.

I don't know the science but from personal experience balancing and recovering in uneasy water is becoming increasingly difficult to a point where I'm beginning to lose speed because my technique is suffering - and no amount of fitness can rectify it - it can mitigate it, but it can't be fixed.....it's a slippery slope. Age also dis-sallows intense training as the body takes longer to recover.

All things that surely has to play in the mind of a Kalama mid Ka'iwi channel as the youngsters start dropping him.....the fact that it doesn't seem to affect him much is incredible.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 10:48:43 AM by peterp »

kayadogg

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2014, 04:14:09 PM »
There are thousands of SUP paddlers who are fitter, younger, have better power to weight ratios, and even perhaps a bit of specific training--and I (67, 245#, bad shoulders, no discipline) beat them regularly in races because I paddle a little better and can read the water better.

Or we could revive that thread about board classes and unlimiteds being unfair  ;)

A lot of these replies made me think of a blog Dave K wrote a few years ago which talks about him and Laird paddling from Oahu to Kauai.  Even though DK is in great shape, I'd have to give Laird the fitness edge between the two.  This blog talks about how Dave was able to catch up to Laird despite being 2 miles back.  Combination of technique but also mental strength, which I think is also crucial and why he was able to finish 6th this past Sunday when the guys ahead of him were all half his age (or even younger).

This is that blog entry, it's a good read:  http://www.davidkalama.com/possessed/


Also, Connor has already had back surgery, hasn't he?  Not a good sign.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 04:15:40 PM by kayadogg »

PonoBill

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2014, 08:02:16 PM »
Most of my wins are on my 12'2" "surfboard". And of course the Unlimited class is unlimited. In theory, you race against people paddling the board they want to paddle, not one that someone decided they should paddle.

I didn't know Connor had surgery. That's not good. But anyone could see it coming. He looks like a coolie carrying a hundred pounds of rice to market.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 08:04:00 PM by PonoBill »
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kayadogg

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2014, 10:02:39 PM »

TallDude

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2014, 10:44:49 AM »
I think it's more a Yin / Yang. You gain fitness trying to improve your technique. Vice-versa. No short cuts to being better.

For me there is an relative equilibrium. If I don't work on my technique, it means I'm not paddling. So I start getting out of shape, and my technique gets sloppy.

I have noticed that I have done better in races this year, and yet I'm not in as good of shape as I was 2 years ago. Technique edging out fit.

There are those who will try to gain fitness, but never want to learn technique. These people do better staring at a mirror while on a treadmill at a 24 hr gym.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 10:51:35 AM by TallDude »
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SaMoSUP

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2014, 03:37:30 PM »
Thanks for all the great feedback. There's actually a lot of intelligent and knowledgeable zoners here when they're not being goofballs.

I've decided that since I focused a lot on technique last month I'll swing over to the fitness/strength side a bit the following weeks. I'm adding 3x week of swimming and cutting back 1 day of paddle or surf depending on swell conditions. Gotta figure out how to squeeze in the strength training part.

Board Stiff - I got the Starting Strength ebook. I think that's my missing element between technique and fitness. Or as PonoBill put it power to weight ratio. Thanks.

balance_fit - you actually sound a lot like what Kalama was preaching. He took videos of us to see what we were actually doing vs. what we think we were doing. I'm mindful of overtraining but this stuff is fun so it doesn't feel like it would be.

pdxmike - I like the cat & dog analogy. Applies elsewhere in life too. I'm more of a cat that needs to have more dog in me. Where are your smartass remarks on this thread?

PonoBill - I'm doing more drills also working on my power to weight ratio with Board Stiff's book. Good point on disciplined SUP race training programs. Much like the ski academies and camps I used to attend. And I do get the Usain Bolt thing but it's not the best example. I would actually say that Connor would be a better runner than Usain would be a paddler. A good debate for another time.

TallDude - yin/yang cycle is where I'm at.







supsurf-tw

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2014, 03:19:28 AM »
Starting Strength is an excellent program
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UKRiverSurfers

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2014, 04:43:42 AM »
I feel that technique will always defeat grunt (fitness). Technique interacts with efficiency and this means a way lower energy expense, a better interaction with board and paddle. SUP paddling is a very technical activity. A better technician will be able to extract the least amount of power from stroke, apply it at the correct time and transfer it to the board better. On a flatwater race, maybe a fitter paddler will come close to a technician, but, say, on a downwinder, no amount of fitness will suffice to catch a true technician. See the example of Kalama, who, at 50, still competes with the youngsters. Are these kids fitter? You bet. Are they better technically? Hmmmm.....
If it's like swimming (I think it is)--technique.  We had a bunch of regional/national class masters triathletes joining our swim workouts.  They had their own lane--the "Landmen".  They were all exceptionally fit.  But good sixty- and seventy-year-old masters swimmers--including women a foot shorter--could smoke them in any stroke, or even kicking.  After a few months of that, a few actually gave up on triathlons and became duathletes (run plus bike only). 


Granted, it wasn't just technique--they were also tight and inflexible--some could barely go forward kicking.  So add some flexibility in with technique (since you need some range of motion for good paddling technique also) and you will most always beat fitness.

I just had a customer who is very fit but very inflexible.. Without flexibility, being fit is virtually useless. Good technique requires flexibility too.
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UKRiverSurfers

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2014, 04:47:56 AM »
Follow what balance-fit just wrote.  The results might just surprise you.
Like others have said in different ways, it's a lot easier to get x% faster through improving your technique than through improving your fitness.  If you're already even moderately fit, getting 5% more fit will require substantial effort, whereas getting 5% more out of each stroke may not (or at least the effort won't be painful). 


In swimming, a lot of technique isn't to get you going faster, it's to slow down the rate at which you slow down.  Paddling, you might be losing 5% in speed just by not feathering your paddle well or standing too upright going into the wind.  Those are way easier to fix than getting 5% faster through strength training or cardio work.


My problem is what balance_fit warned about--my actual technique bears no resemblance to what my technique is in my head.  I think I'm bending until my back is almost parallel to the water, then someone tells me I'm almost upright.

Video analysis works wonders...

As with swimming, going 'faster' usually means, travelling slower and vice-versa..

Upping your paddle stroke rate, needs, shorter faster strokes, without worrying about quality of each stroke.. That way you will travel faster, using brute force and building up the energy that's 'stored' in the board.
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Skate

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2014, 06:42:09 AM »
Thanks for all the great feedback. There's actually a lot of intelligent and knowledgeable zoners here when they're not being goofballs.

I've decided that since I focused a lot on technique last month I'll swing over to the fitness/strength side a bit the following weeks. I'm adding 3x week of swimming and cutting back 1 day of paddle or surf depending on swell conditions. Gotta figure out how to squeeze in the strength training part.

Board Stiff - I got the Starting Strength ebook. I think that's my missing element between technique and fitness. Or as PonoBill put it power to weight ratio. Thanks.

balance_fit - you actually sound a lot like what Kalama was preaching. He took videos of us to see what we were actually doing vs. what we think we were doing. I'm mindful of overtraining but this stuff is fun so it doesn't feel like it would be.

pdxmike - I like the cat & dog analogy. Applies elsewhere in life too. I'm more of a cat that needs to have more dog in me. Where are your smartass remarks on this thread?




PonoBill - I'm doing more drills also working on my power to weight ratio with Board Stiff's book. Good point on disciplined SUP race training programs. Much like the ski academies and camps I used to attend. And I do get the Usain Bolt thing but it's not the best example. I would actually say that Connor would be a better runner than Usain would be a paddler. A good debate for another time.

TallDude - yin/yang cycle is where I'm at.




If you ever need some swim work outs let me know. I haver 100s of different work outs.

gorgebob

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2014, 09:07:28 AM »
Technique, and being fit are both key. I have a slight obsession on body weight and displacement. I look at a pound on the  body as 16oz more of liquid that I have to move through as I paddle. Its a shapers tick. Pono is moving a couple of cases of liquid more than me to paddle to the same place.
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PonoBill

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2014, 09:20:55 AM »
Roughly two kegs, I'd say. Which coincidentally is mostly how I got that extra avoirdupois.
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