Author Topic: Technique vs. Fitness  (Read 6805 times)

SaMoSUP

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Technique vs. Fitness
« on: July 28, 2014, 01:27:07 PM »
I'm curious what zoners think...

Who would win more races? A person with better fitness than technique or better technique than fitness?

Chilly

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2014, 01:40:59 PM »
Technique!
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balance_fit

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2014, 01:42:46 PM »
I feel that technique will always defeat grunt (fitness). Technique interacts with efficiency and this means a way lower energy expense, a better interaction with board and paddle. SUP paddling is a very technical activity. A better technician will be able to extract the least amount of power from stroke, apply it at the correct time and transfer it to the board better. On a flatwater race, maybe a fitter paddler will come close to a technician, but, say, on a downwinder, no amount of fitness will suffice to catch a true technician. See the example of Kalama, who, at 50, still competes with the youngsters. Are these kids fitter? You bet. Are they better technically? Hmmmm.....
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pdxmike

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2014, 03:28:26 PM »
I feel that technique will always defeat grunt (fitness). Technique interacts with efficiency and this means a way lower energy expense, a better interaction with board and paddle. SUP paddling is a very technical activity. A better technician will be able to extract the least amount of power from stroke, apply it at the correct time and transfer it to the board better. On a flatwater race, maybe a fitter paddler will come close to a technician, but, say, on a downwinder, no amount of fitness will suffice to catch a true technician. See the example of Kalama, who, at 50, still competes with the youngsters. Are these kids fitter? You bet. Are they better technically? Hmmmm.....
If it's like swimming (I think it is)--technique.  We had a bunch of regional/national class masters triathletes joining our swim workouts.  They had their own lane--the "Landmen".  They were all exceptionally fit.  But good sixty- and seventy-year-old masters swimmers--including women a foot shorter--could smoke them in any stroke, or even kicking.  After a few months of that, a few actually gave up on triathlons and became duathletes (run plus bike only). 


Granted, it wasn't just technique--they were also tight and inflexible--some could barely go forward kicking.  So add some flexibility in with technique (since you need some range of motion for good paddling technique also) and you will most always beat fitness.

PonoBill

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2014, 04:04:08 PM »
I'm certain that Usain Bolt would get his ass kicked in a SUP race with Connor Baxter. And maybe even by me. But it's a three-legged stool and we're asking which leg is most important. Given the current state of SUP racing the most important leg is lightness (or more precisely/ power to weight), followed by technique and then fitness.

When Connor first started winning a lot of SUP races his paddle technique was simply not the greatest. He finally accepted some coaching before he turned his back to junk. But the combination of age and power to weight was enough to win the early races even up against extremely fit technique masters like Dave Kalama and Danny Ching. Today he's added more of the other two legs, though I bet he's going to still have some back problems pretty soon.

Oh, and BalanceFit, I'd avoid Kalama for a few months unless you want a nuclear wedgie. He's 49, and somewhat touchy about it. In fact I'm glad I'm in Hood River while I'm saying that.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 04:19:39 PM by PonoBill »
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balance_fit

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2014, 05:14:26 PM »
Today he's added more of the other two legs, though I bet he's going to still have some back problems pretty soon.

Oh, and BalanceFit, I'd avoid Kalama for a few months unless you want a nuclear wedgie. He's 49, and somewhat touchy about it. In fact I'm glad I'm in Hood River while I'm saying that.

PonoBill, glad you brought Connor he's a perfect example on this discussion. I understand youth is on his side, for the moment, regarding his back and the range of motion he asks of it.
I feel he's a master technician too, and his S/W ratio seems to be awesome (a trainable quality, although i feel he has a lot of good genes there). Maybe his VO2 is off the charts too. He's quite a unique specimen on the not-yet-perfectly-defined SUPer morphology... so, maybe, his strange technique suits his body type and i'm sure he trains his fitness a lot.

I feel that, unless he and others like him are tested on basic parameters of fitness, like VO2, AT, S/W, flexibility, etc, it's hard to define which aspect contributes more.

Regarding Kalama, he has nothing to be ashamed of getting to 50. His performance shows he is way beyond the expected fitness of any 50 yr old. He's on a very high percentile, no doubt !


If it's like swimming (I think it is)--technique.  We had a bunch of regional/national class masters triathletes joining our swim workouts.  They had their own lane--the "Landmen".  They were all exceptionally fit.  But good sixty- and seventy-year-old masters swimmers--including women a foot shorter--could smoke them in any stroke, or even kicking.  After a few months of that, a few actually gave up on triathlons and became duathletes (run plus bike only). 

Granted, it wasn't just technique--they were also tight and inflexible--some could barely go forward kicking.  So add some flexibility in with technique (since you need some range of motion for good paddling technique also) and you will most always beat fitness.


Ah...swimming ! Thanks for bringing it. One can train swimming for 30 years and still suck at it. Name me. Tight and a sinker. Still working on my miserable stroke, hoping for the best. 
Range of motion is a medular component of fitness. Without it, no paddling technique can be applied successfully. Well said PDX.

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PonoBill

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2014, 05:23:28 PM »
I was just talking with Chris Koener about this. I don't think Conner is a genetically favored--I know his Mom and Dad. His skinny legs, wide shoulders, and quickly increasing core and upper body muscle mass are shaped by the huge amount of training he does. Except his long arms. I was talking with his sis, Ashley, and I said I could pick Conner out of a crowd because of his ape-like arms. Which cracked her up because she called them Monkey arms ever since he was a little kid.

My wife picks me out of a crowd by my bobble head. I think I'd prefer the arms.

Anyway, Connors technique has improved hugely, and he's extremely good at reading water and reacting to conditions. He's also very driven and relentless.
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Skate

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2014, 05:37:22 PM »
Technique wins every time. I am a college and rec swim coach and technique is the main focus that I teach. Fitness is a good thing to have but I would rather have a slower swimmer with perfect technique than a fast swimmer that looks like that they are fighting the water. Once someone has the proper technique speed will follow.

SaMoSUP

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2014, 06:57:00 PM »
But the combination of age and power to weight was enough to win the early races even up against extremely fit technique masters like Dave Kalama and Danny Ching. Today he's added more of the other two legs, though I bet he's going to still have some back problems pretty soon.

Funny you mention Dave and Danny. Over the past 30 days I took both of their clinics. I asked both of them this same question assuming competent paddlers at similar levels, so the Usain Bolt example is out. Danny would give the edge to the fittest person while Dave would take the person with better technique.

I ask this question because I'm trying to refine my training plan. I've worked a lot on stroke technique with clinics from two legendary paddlers within a month, plus 4-5x paddling and 3x surfing weekly. While I'm making some good progress I still feel like I'm coming up short in races to people who are more fit than I am but with not as good technique. I don't like it when I finish behind someone with bad stroke technique.

So now I'm dreading the thought of adding in more cardio work in the gym. I'd rather that time be spent paddling on the water.

TN_SUP

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2014, 06:15:43 AM »
This reminds me of why I quit spin class. The fitness geeks kicked my butt in class even though they didn't even own a bike, which I found intimidating with 20 years of biking experience. But the roles would reverse on any technical mountainbike trail....

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Board Stiff

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2014, 07:15:56 AM »
Samosup, if you're getting that many sessions in per week,  I'd think your cardio conditioning must be pretty good already.  Strength training might be a better addition to your current program of you're looking to make gains through fitness. I've been reading Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength recently and am eager to try it out in the next off-season. He makes a convincing argument that a foundation of strength

Board Stiff

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2014, 07:16:54 AM »
... Is necessary for power production and can even improve endurance.

supsurf-tw

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2014, 07:23:12 AM »
Technique will trump fitness any time. But technique + fitness = unbeatable
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balance_fit

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2014, 08:06:19 AM »
Funny you mention Dave and Danny. Over the past 30 days I took both of their clinics. I asked both of them this same question assuming competent paddlers at similar levels, so the Usain Bolt example is out. Danny would give the edge to the fittest person while Dave would take the person with better technique.

I ask this question because I'm trying to refine my training plan. I've worked a lot on stroke technique with clinics from two legendary paddlers within a month, plus 4-5x paddling and 3x surfing weekly. While I'm making some good progress I still feel like I'm coming up short in races to people who are more fit than I am but with not as good technique. I don't like it when I finish behind someone with bad stroke technique.

So now I'm dreading the thought of adding in more cardio work in the gym. I'd rather that time be spent paddling on the water.

SaMoSUP, it's interesting you bring both Danny's and Kalama's points of view in. If one keeps asking the same question (fit vs tech)to each elite paddler across the age spectrum one might end up with a tie between those who preach fitness and the others who preach technique. Younger paddlers will favor fitness, because they have a higher potential to achieve fitness gains, whereas older paddlers will favor technique, since their bodies might not be so apt to deal with the stress of heavy physical training.

To be technically proficient, one has to put the hours of training and achieve a baseline of fitness to do it, never forgetting technique in the process, because a stroke with flaws, practiced over and over again, will be very difficult to correct once the flawed pattern is ingrained. And ingrained flaws take even longer to correct.

Since you have taken clinics with great Masters of the sport one may think that your technique is down and flawless. There is a catch with this: you took the technique clinics over the last 30 days. What ever technical flaws you were able to identify and start to modify haven't had a chance to get ingrained in your system yet. Neuromuscular training takes a lot of patience through extensive repetition (not intensive), and a lot of reinforcement, so, if you don't have your coach nearby watching your technique, beware. This may be a pitfall of a one time clinic, where one gets to identify and start working on a technical flaw, under a temporary supervision, but, when the clinic is finished, if there is no parameter to follow, (a video, coach, etc) the old flaws will assault the stroke again. 

As an example, take breathing. "Breatheee" seems to be a common mantra in technical clinics. So, how many of us forget to "breatheee" when sprinting for a race's finish line? Even being an elemental action for life, we clench our teeth and sputter, and not for lack of feedback.

Back to tech,  in your training plan, there has to be a set period devoted to low intensity technique training. And this type of training is performed on the base training period on your year's periodization plan, along with lower volume of training, not on the competitive period as it seems to be happening from what you have stated.
Technique is not an element of training one takes, modifies and immediately gets results. In fact, one has to slow down in training to apply the technique elements and then, when finally ingrained, one can start building up other fitness elements on top of it (high endurance, speed, intensity, etc).
So, this may mean that paddling 4-5x, surfing 3x and attempting to put more cardio work in the gym will lead you to overtraining. And, in an overtrained state, it will be very difficult to achieve technical gains.

Get back to your training plan and identify which races on this year will have an "A" priority, which are, at least, 8-10 weeks away. See if you can devote 6-8 weeks to practice the technical elements you learned on the clinics with the Masters. But not just practice them, see if it's possible to get a video of your current technique and make it part of your program to take a weekly video in flatwater, no wind conditions, so you have a parameter to work against. And practice those elements with patience and introspection, progressively, and through a programmed increase in volume. With this tool in hand, time trial yourself on a set course in controlled conditions every 2 weeks. But don't go all out, do it at an easy, 70-80% HRM monitored pace. Then you will be able to see if this technical elements are making sense. 

You're making progress, this is good. Just keep progressing and gauge yourself against your own parameters, not against faster paddlers who seem to have technical flaws, because there's very quick paddlers out there who can get away with a "less than ideal" technique and still fly.

Be patient, slow down and enjoy, above all.
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hbsteve

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Re: Technique vs. Fitness
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2014, 08:42:13 AM »
Follow what balance-fit just wrote.  The results might just surprise you.

 


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