Author Topic: Having the paddle go past your feet IS FINE.  (Read 11171 times)

TallDude

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Having the paddle go past your feet IS FINE.
« on: July 28, 2014, 01:22:08 PM »
I don't usually paddle in the harbor, but being summer a lot of our friends new to SUP want us to take them out for a paddle. Recently on more than one occasion, this kindly gentleman has been giving paddling me tips as he passes, or I pass him. I'm not sure what has compelled him to offer these words of advice. I can tell he's got the stoke, and I wouldn't want to take that from anyone. The reason I'm doing 2 to 3 mph, is that I'm with beginners. This past Saturday he tells me for the 2nd or third time, that " I don't need to, and should paddle behind my feet at all." He then proceeds to sprint off in a 'watch me kind of way'.
It's like someone told him that to paddle, or have your paddle go behind the line of your feet is just bad, and wrong. The thing is, the 'power phase' (pull) of your stroke does typically end as the paddle blade gets to your feet. So are you supposed to yank it straight up at that point? NO. You allow the blade to efficiently surface and swing it around with the blade parallel face parallel and just off the surface of the water. What he doesn't know is that I kind of know how to paddle, and I don't finish to far behind Thomas Maximus and Rob Rojas. Again, I will never say anything to this guy, because he's got the stoke going off the charts right now.
Depending on the blade angle of your particular paddle, your height, your reach, your skill level, and your physical limitations, everyone's anchor, pull, and release will vary.

(The basic's aside, like keeping your paddle shaft vertical as to not cross your chest, and the blade angle should be pointed forward)

A life long outrigger paddler, and stand up paddler friend who taught this old surfer /wind surfer how to use a paddle, once told me:" The blade should enter the water at such an angle that matches your speed, quietly . Once the blade is pretty much under water, you anchor it and pull. Get a full turn out of your body, and bring the blade out flat and quiet. No splash in or out...... That's it.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 01:27:34 PM by TallDude »
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SlatchJim

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Re: Having the paddle go past your feet IS FINE.
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2014, 01:33:45 PM »
So in summary "You blinded him with science!"

As an old and not particularly graceful swimmer, the goal was always an efficient use of energy.  None did it better than Janet Evans in her prime.  Some of her records were held for nearly 20 years, unheard of in sport these days.  I swear it looked like she was barely trying.  I've seen some at the BOP and other places just fly by me and it's the same exact concept: be strong and smooth and you go fast.

TallDude

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Re: Having the paddle go past your feet IS FINE.
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2014, 01:41:00 PM »
One of these days I'll politely ask if he wants to paddle my 25" wide unlimited. If he does, I'll show him how to use his paddle to brace ;D  It's only 7" wide at 12" from the tail and 4" wide 12" from the nose. If you're not doing 5 mph +, you have to kind of always feather brace your paddle just to stay upright.

BTW, I have said nothing but a kind 'thank you' to him so far.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 01:49:56 PM by TallDude »
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pdxmike

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Re: Having the paddle go past your feet IS FINE.
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2014, 03:17:46 PM »
So in summary "You blinded him with science!"

As an old and not particularly graceful swimmer, the goal was always an efficient use of energy.  None did it better than Janet Evans in her prime.  Some of her records were held for nearly 20 years, unheard of in sport these days.  I swear it looked like she was barely trying.  I've seen some at the BOP and other places just fly by me and it's the same exact concept: be strong and smooth and you go fast.
That's a good example.  Not only was she fast, her straight-arm, windmill stroke was unorthodox, and looked even more orthodox looking back on it.  It took years before many people could appreciate why it worked so well for her, and there has even been a resurgence in straight-arm freestyle among top swimmers.  The average club coach/triathlete/person with SOME knowledge of stroke technique might still say she was doing it all wrong.


Swimming freestyle's a good example in general of what TallDude is saying.  You can watch an elite race and every swimmer is blazingly fast, but all are swimming slightly different strokes, based on what works for them.  All are nailing the main principles, though.

PonoBill

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Re: Having the paddle go past your feet IS FINE.
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2014, 03:43:08 PM »
There's nothing wrong with your paddle drifting past your feet as long as you aren't applying power--most people's paddles do even when they know what they are doing. It's better technique to do a feathered recovery while the paddle is near vertical because it's more efficient and gets the paddle recovered more quickly. But it's a practiced move, it's not intuitive, and learning to do it consistently is guaranteed to screw you up and slow you down until you assimilate it into your stroke--which could take a year or more. It's not as bad as learning how to read the water, which leaves you looking down at the nose of your board instead of where you're going. I almost paddled over Baldwin reef one day when I was taking a lesson from Jeremy. If he hadn't yelled "BILL!! Look up!! I would have been toast.

But if you apply power past your feet you are actually slowing the board down. I don't completely understand why, but I've measured it with my realtime recording speedo. I think it's mostly because you pull the rail down but it might be because you're sinking the tail too.

None of the really good paddlers stroke the same way every time. They have a quiver of strokes. Mere mortals like me need to keep it simple and focus. As it is I get about one stroke I feel good about out of ten.
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SUP-poser

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Re: Having the paddle go past your feet IS FINE.
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2014, 01:37:04 PM »
Quote
...I think it's mostly because you pull the rail down but it might be because you're sinking the tail too.

I was told the same thing by a more experienced guy. He believed that pulling much aft of the feet after the shaft and blade face pass the vertical produced a downward or sinking force that wasn't desirable or effective in moving the board. Sounds like your end of stroke aft isn't about producing forward thrust TD, but more of a follow-through and paddle extraction. I've evolved a shorter stroke that ends abeam or maybe just aft of my feet with my top hand scribing an inward arc toward the deck while the lower hand remains fairly fixed like a fulcrum as the blade exits the water in an outboard slice and then feathers with the thumb pointing forward as I rotate the paddle into feather in the recovery. Dunno' how great this procedure is. It works for me, but I haven't been trying to share it with strangers in the water who may have longer strokes that work fine for them. Many of these long-stroke style paddlers seem to catch a lot more waves than I do.
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TallDude

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Re: Having the paddle go past your feet IS FINE.
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2014, 02:04:45 PM »
This was posted before, it's a great video by Jim Terrell to point out specifics about the paddle stroke. Notice where Jim's paddle exits the water. You can even see him carrying the 'power phase' behind his feet. I bury my paddle as deep, as Jim does. When he lets off his power phase, the paddle drifts back well behind his feet as part of his recovery phase.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ANelSnn0y8#t=217
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PonoBill

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Re: Having the paddle go past your feet IS FINE.
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2014, 05:04:38 PM »
It's an interesting video, and Jim Terrel certainly has a lot more experience paddling than I do. But there's a couple of things to look at in the video. He says there are four important elements, and two of them are exit and recovery. When he's pulling back towards the tail of the board look at what his board and paddle do. The rail dips, the tail sinks, and the blade comes out of the water with a splash. It's right in the video. I wouldn't call that a clean exit.

Second, he drops his upper hand to make the blade exit and start recovery. That's certainly a relic of his kneeling canoe days. It's not an efficient way to recover a SUP paddle. He's winging the blade out without feathering it, dropping his upper hand to waist level--it will have to be raised up again at the end of the recovery, taking energy, and swinging the blade through a long arc, which takes longer.

It doesn't require a zen paddle master to see that's not a great approach. It's easier to learn, but it's not efficient.

If you lift the blade vertically when it reaches your feet, pushing up with your lower hand in it's very strong position and break your wrist inward the paddle pops out of the water in a feathered position. your upper hand stays high, describing a small circular motion--actually almond shaped is what the coaches call it. You punch the lower hand forward and the bent lower wrist automatically unwinds, defeathering the paddle at the end of the recovery. The paddle takes a straight line instead of a long curve. Your upper hand is already in place and your lower hand has punched directly forward instead of swinging in a roundhouse motion, which is both strong and fast. It's easy to get back into the stacked shoulder position because you've hardly left it. The punch has momentum and can help stretch your muscles into a longer reach.

From a technique standpoint it's simply better in every way but one--and that's just that you already know how to optimize what you're doing. That doesn't make it the best way, or even a very good way. If you took the time to work on a better technique it would eventually pay off, but don't expect it to work right away. It will slow you down, and it will do so for quite a while.

People can drive a racecar fast without really understanding how to manage braking, corner entry speed, mid corner speed and car position, exit speed and balance. They just grow an extra testicle and push hard. It works, sort of, until you come up against someone who actually knows how to get everything out of a car.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 05:07:12 PM by PonoBill »
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standuped

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Re: Having the paddle go past your feet IS FINE.
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2014, 11:37:17 AM »
I don't usually paddle in the harbor, but being summer a lot of our friends new to SUP want us to take them out for a paddle. Recently on more than one occasion, this kindly gentleman has been giving paddling me tips as he passes, or I pass him. I'm not sure what has compelled him to offer these words of advice. I can tell he's got the stoke, and I wouldn't want to take that from anyone. The reason I'm doing 2 to 3 mph, is that I'm with beginners. This past Saturday he tells me for the 2nd or third time, that " I don't need to, and should paddle behind my feet at all." He then proceeds to sprint off in a 'watch me kind of way'.
It's like someone told him that to paddle, or have your paddle go behind the line of your feet is just bad, and wrong. The thing is, the 'power phase' (pull) of your stroke does typically end as the paddle blade gets to your feet. So are you supposed to yank it straight up at that point? NO. You allow the blade to efficiently surface and swing it around with the blade parallel face parallel and just off the surface of the water. What he doesn't know is that I kind of know how to paddle, and I don't finish to far behind Thomas Maximus and Rob Rojas. Again, I will never say anything to this guy, because he's got the stoke going off the charts right now.
Depending on the blade angle of your particular paddle, your height, your reach, your skill level, and your physical limitations, everyone's anchor, pull, and release will vary.

(The basic's aside, like keeping your paddle shaft vertical as to not cross your chest, and the blade angle should be pointed forward)

A life long outrigger paddler, and stand up paddler friend who taught this old surfer /wind surfer how to use a paddle, once told me:" The blade should enter the water at such an angle that matches your speed, quietly . Once the blade is pretty much under water, you anchor it and pull. Get a full turn out of your body, and bring the blade out flat and quiet. No splash in or out...... That's it.

This is such an awesome post!  I've had a very similar experience, except with a younger more annoying unsolicited "instructor" .  I knew the said expert had zero SUS time and I felt like saying " hey chief why don't you come out in the ocean with me and see how all that works for ya".  Like you I was with friends, and to me friends don't let friends cripple there SUS future prospects by being conditioned to fail.   If you are land locked, to me it is far better to spend your ENTIRE flatwater life training for the rare time when you may get to travel to a place that has surf. Or in my circumstance of almost exclusively SUS once you start spending enough time on the water you will intuitively learn the efficient "don't go past your feet stroke" because you are exhausted and you body is telling you what is working the best.  To me this is one of the last techniques that some one needs to learn.  Part of the joy of learning is experiencing the intuitive element.  Like wow if I keep my paddle in the water I won't fall off.  Or when I'm dropping in a little late continuing the stroke past my feet will drive the tail down, stabilize me, and keep me from pearling, etc,etc,etc. So specifics aside  I guess my point is "POWER TO THE PEOPLE", fight the good fight, don't let some bean counter harsh your mellow.
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willi

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Re: Having the paddle go past your feet IS FINE.
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2014, 07:38:20 PM »
Larry Cain won this years Key West race by minutes --lots of them -- 5 to 8 foot seas & 20 MPH headwinds

Keeping your top hand up all the time is like doing elevations in the gym with weights-- like we did for swim team -- a good way to wear your shoulder out ---
 For me -- theres more to it than just the path the paddle follows --

The dropping your top hand to facilitate a good clean exit and bringing the blade feathered forward low gives you a great set up for the next stroke allowing you to load your hip for power -(paddle side hip forward /bottom  hand square on the paddle for good power)
(next top hand up and over to get into the stacked hands and shoulder position)- not as easy with the wrist flip --

 when you drop your hand off the handle to the shaft and do the Conner stroke to sprint-- head into wind and chop with  lowered profile -- or pass someone coming into the finish line --effective for lots of fast strokes that equal speed!. (off the handle situation) again helps load paddle side hip--

Teaching new folks the top hand drop is a great part of the paddle stroke to get them on the right track so they don't end up with bent elbows doing push ups every stroke. --later they can adopt anything they wish !!

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JF808

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Re: Having the paddle go past your feet IS FINE.
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2014, 02:34:50 AM »
I paddle OC6, OC1, and SUP...  Pono bill hit it on the head.  Your blade can still remain in the water past your feet, but at that point the actual pull or power phase has ended, the reason your blade is still in the water is it's considered the "follow through" of the stroke, apart of the recovery phase. As your blade is moving past your feet you should't be applying power

the term forward angle is only used during the catch phase, you want the blade at a foward angle during the catch, if your blade is at a vertical angle during the catch phase... it's not wrong, it still works, but your not maximizing your reach.

PonoBill

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Re: Having the paddle go past your feet IS FINE.
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2014, 08:05:04 AM »
Larry Cain is a great paddler in fantastic condition. That doesn't make everything he does optimal. The jury is still out on SUP paddle stroke--it's a new sport. I discovered this year that Annabelle Anderson has changed her stroke substantially. She probably could have beaten Larry last year, and she probably can this year. Dave Kalama has abandoned the one-hip forward movement in favor of shoving both hips forward. I watched the Tahitians closely at the Gorge--Georges had a substantially different stroke than Bruno, and yet they both come from the extremely disciplined and forward-thinking Tahitian Paddle machine.

Keeping your hand up, resting on top of the handle while your lower hand does the work is nothing like elevations--dropping your hand and then getting it back up is like elevations. Teaching new folks the drop hand movement is like teaching grade school kids that Columbus proved the world was round. Something they'll have to unlearn later.
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pdxmike

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Re: Having the paddle go past your feet IS FINE.
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2014, 10:55:06 AM »
Teaching new folks the drop hand movement is like teaching grade school kids that Columbus proved the world was round. Something they'll have to unlearn later.
Columbus DIDN'T prove the world was round?

breakbad

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Re: Having the paddle go past your feet IS FINE.
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2014, 11:20:06 AM »
Teaching new folks the drop hand movement is like teaching grade school kids that Columbus proved the world was round. Something they'll have to unlearn later.
Columbus DIDN'T prove the world was round?

I'm sure some Greek guy calculated it back in whatever B.C. Or by watching the round earths shadow during lunar eclipse.

But back on topic, now that we know the earth is round, we should also consider the Coriolis Effect.  Which is why you should always take an extra stroke on the left side if you're in the northern hemisphere, or right side if southern hemisphere.  ::)

SaMoSUP

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Re: Having the paddle go past your feet IS FINE.
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2014, 12:03:19 PM »
There's a good drill that Kalama teaches where you place a bamboo stick across the beam of your SUP and under your heels where you normally stand. Then take several paddle strokes in front of the stick and then several aft of the stick. This really demonstrates this concept well.

 


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