Author Topic: dave kalama's ideas for racing inflatables  (Read 21501 times)

Admin

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Re: dave kalama's ideas for racing inflatables
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2014, 08:36:31 AM »
Pono, I agree, but that's my argument, it's already slow, what's another 1 mph?

50%

PonoBill

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Re: dave kalama's ideas for racing inflatables
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2014, 08:44:28 AM »
My point is that it shouldn't be slow. Racing should show off the potential of the sport, not set limits. Rules should aim to broaden participation, not limit it. Personally I wouldn't care much about fairness, but I'd want to give anyone that put in the time and effort to be as good as they could be, a reasonable shot at some level of success.

I think Dave is trying to get at this kind of rationality, but I'm not sure this is the way. I can guess how frustrated he is that current rules make him uncompetitive.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

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Re: dave kalama's ideas for racing inflatables
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2014, 08:49:25 AM »
America's Cup would have a chance at popularity if only they could turn this



into this



They need to follow the guiding rules of product adoption:

Slow sells
Sexy is overrated
Buyers are practical
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 08:58:27 AM by Admin »

PonoBill

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Re: dave kalama's ideas for racing inflatables
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2014, 09:12:33 AM »
I'm thinking Formula One should switch to Spec Racer Ford, and Nascar should be stock Chevy Volts. Think of the money they'd save.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

raf

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Re: dave kalama's ideas for racing inflatables
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2014, 09:33:18 AM »
I gotta say, I don't really get how this "idea" of Dave's is even really an idea.  That inflatables are easier to transport?  Who doesn't know this?  And how many of us are going on planes to travel from one race to the next anyways?  Mostly the pros, who can hook up with local shops and grab stock boards anyways.  Thats something I'd like to see more of.  Incentivizing local shops to carry the latest in race tech would benefit everyone. 
And how does an inflatable lend itself better to customization of length and width better than a glass board?  I totally don't see this point at all.  Its just one tech for another.  You'd have racers showing up on full carbon side-walled 16'ers with rigid kevlar panels and the boards would take 1.5 hours to put together and would still cost $4000. 

The argument against 12-6 or 14 as arbitrary lengths has nothing to do with what the board is made of.  There is one rule that seems to apply to all boards; longer, narrower boards go faster than shorter, wider ones.  So either its an arms race, or a set-length class that benefit some more than others. 

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Re: dave kalama's ideas for racing inflatables
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2014, 09:55:56 AM »
In terms of downwind:

Scrawner Baxter may show up on an inflatable and still make most of his glides.  Same is true of the other guys in the top 10.

For everyone else each glide is a hit/miss affair and the gear is the difference between fun and work without gratification.  Even a slower all carbon board can mean 10 minutes a run.  If the wind goes sub 20 MPH make that 25 minutes.  You are going to have a bunch of unhappy BLUP SUP paddlers out there when their Garmin's start telling the real story. 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 10:07:57 AM by Admin »

PonoBill

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Re: dave kalama's ideas for racing inflatables
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2014, 10:12:20 AM »
I do viento downwinds on my 12'2" X 26 Starboard fairly often--it's fun. But I have to make sure my truck is at the end and no one needs a ride, or I have a lynch mob waiting for me--or an empty beach if I drove to Viento.

I race the 12'2" as well, but that's kind of a combination fat guy protest and trophy grab. In a buoy race the 12'2" is competitive with a lot of the 14' class and unless some skinny geezer that knows how to paddle shows up, I'm a shoe-in for the podium. I should probably keep my mouth shut. A few years ago I bragged on my 12'2" and a guy showed up from Canada with one and kicked my ass.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

pdxmike

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Re: dave kalama's ideas for racing inflatables
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2014, 10:58:16 AM »

Dave was pretty sneaky.  He wrote:

Well then *if* transportation and logistics are such a big issue, why aren’t we all just racing inflatables?

So the inflatable idea has a lot of merit IF you start with the idea that those are the big issues.  Personally, I don't think they are that important, and there are other problems with his idea, that everyone else has already mentioned.  I also don't like that it takes the individual shaper out--you can't make an inflatable in your garage. 

But I still like that he presented it, and how he did.  I like seeing how he replaces a whole slew of board-restriction rules (width, weight, deck recesses, etc.) with a single restriction (has to be inflatable).  I like that he simply states his idea, without pretending it's any kind of consensus, or that there's an urgent need to do it right away for the good of the sport.  He didn't make up any fake, dumb justifications ("if you don't like it, you can race your board as an unlimited", "your current board will be obsolete next year anyway", etc.).

I especially like that he didn't hold secret meetings with board manufacturers and then proclaim that they've all agreed to limit the kinds of boards that they'll sell to you in the future, and that it's for your own good. 

What I like best is that it shows a very different approach to the board-rules issue, bringing up a category (inflatables) that have been almost totally ignored by races, and by other certain nameless rule-making groups.  Racing-quality inflatables didn't even exist until now, and they have the potential to solve a lot of problems that hard boards have in regard to racing. 

It's not even important that he's talking about inflatables.  The main thing is he's showing how something that didn't exist until now could have tremendous impacts on racing in the future, and inflatables are probably not the last thing that's going to be invented that could have major impacts.  So bottom line is it's silly to jump up and down claiming we need to cement current technology in place with a bunch of rules, and especially dumb to claim there's some sort of urgency to do that for the good of the sport. 

So he presented his opinion, on the surface, as a specific idea for using inflatables for racing, but the real value to me is that disguised in that is a pretty eloquent jab at the idea that the sport is already at the point where anyone should even be thinking of micromanaging racing and board design with silly, specific limits on how much your 12-6" or 14' board weighs, or how many millimeters the deck recess can be. 


« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 11:01:43 AM by pdxmike »

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Re: dave kalama's ideas for racing inflatables
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2014, 11:51:22 AM »
Sorry to do it here but I am going to uncage the 800 lb. Gorilla in the room.  Training inequality.

It is complete bullshit that they are letting guys who are training to the point of exertion enter these races.  You can't have fair race where some guys are training and others are not.  It is un-American to discriminate against the lazy but that is exactly what is going on here.

Upon further consideration, the only truly fair scenario is to agree to take turns winning. 


pdxmike

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Re: dave kalama's ideas for racing inflatables
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2014, 12:08:27 PM »
Admin--you shouldn't call them them "lazy".  --when I hear them called "lazy" it makes me feel sad.


You are being  Saying "lazy" is being judgemental and it could hurt their self-esteem.  You should call  It would be better to call them "inactive" "alternatively active".


Also, I don't agree with taking turns winning.  Shouldn't everyone always be a winner?

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Re: dave kalama's ideas for racing inflatables
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2014, 12:28:26 PM »
Also, I don't agree with taking turns winning.  Shouldn't everyone always be a winner?

We need a winner.  As Admin it seems that beginning the winning order alphabetically is only fair.  By the way, Aaron is an unfair name.  I want to lodge my protest against the name Aaron right now. 

SaMoSUP

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Re: dave kalama's ideas for racing inflatables
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2014, 01:16:25 PM »
This is a great debate. It draws some parallels to alpine skiing. Interestingly enough when snowboarding pushed the ski industry to innovate, one of the benefits was faster skis at shorter lengths. I remember my first pair of slalom skis were 200cm...today's racers are on 155cm. My all mountain skis were 205cm...now they're 178cm. The evolution of ski shapes made this possible. My skis fit inside the car now. I don't have to buy a roof rack to go skiing. Easier to transport.

Another interesting thing about ski racing, that SUP racing could look to, is that there are no max length restrictions. Longer skis glide better (just like SUPs). Each racer is on their preferred ski length. Regardless of length of ski, the person with the fastest time wins. But it's not always the guy with the longer skis that wins. What's ironic is that there is a minimum length and sidecut radius requirement for ski racing for each discipline. But these are in place for safety reasons since racers are going much faster than they were 20 years ago.

Is it possible in 20 years that we'll have 10' boards, hard or inflatable, going faster than current 12'6 or 14' boards?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 01:20:23 PM by SaMoSUP »

hbsteve

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Re: dave kalama's ideas for racing inflatables
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2014, 03:43:42 PM »
Just wait until the Olympic Committee makes the switch to inflatable rowing shells.  They'd be so much easier to transport.
Wait a long, long time.

PonoBill

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Re: dave kalama's ideas for racing inflatables
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2014, 03:53:09 PM »
Is it possible in 20 years that we'll have 10' boards, hard or inflatable, going faster than current 12'6 or 14' boards?

Yes, but only if they have motors. Or surgically altered athletes.

I remember the heated debate in the early days of the zone when Stu Campbell and I made the outrageous comment that longer boards were faster than shorter ones. There were people that really wanted to punch my lights out for saying that. They told me so. It's not the first time I had someone want to hit me for understanding physics, but then I graduated from high school.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

pdxmike

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Re: dave kalama's ideas for racing inflatables
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2014, 03:55:40 PM »
Just wait until the Olympic Committee makes the switch to inflatable rowing shells.  They'd be so much easier to transport.
Wait a long, long time.
Well, there's already soft-shell crabs.

 


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