Kings Factory visit and thoughts on production boards

[supdiscobay]

Last week I had the chance to tour the Kings Paddlesports factory in San Marcos, CA, in the North County San Diego area.  The owner Dave Daum, his wife Rhonda and staff were incredibly accommodating, even though they were preparing to travel to Washington State to support a dealer and attend a local race. After touring the facility, which was an amazing learning experience, Dave and I talked about manufacturing boards and the market.  One of the most impressive things about ordering a Kings board, is that Dave can make it custom to your exact specs.  You aren’t stuck wondering if you should get the 9’6” 140 ltr or the 9’0” 130 ltr model, because with the sweep of a mouse Dave can make the board any length, width, thickness, volume, and any rail shape you want. 

Two weeks ago I demoed an 8’10” x31” 126ltr Sidewinder model.  While at his shop, Dave pulled up the CAD design of that exact board and then we started tweaking it to narrow it and thin it out, to end up about 119 ltrs. I am 200lbs, and have surfed since I was 14 (I turn 53 this month). I have really enjoyed the 8’10” x 31”.  Even my son, who gives me a bad time about SUPing, paddled out on it and thought it was a great turning board.  This board was a single to double concave, with a thruster set up, and step rails.  The board Dave and I re-designed was a single concave, and a quad.  Which will work better chasing the sections that I typically surf in Santa Cruz.  In the end I decided to buy the demo board and I will likely order a smaller custom board next year. With a kid still in college, price was a factor.

Dave has a new material he is using for the SUS boards.  It is called Cor-Lan and because of its “properties”, it must be vacuum bagged.  The material is very strong, and a 9’0” board will weigh 14lbs, and be as strong as carbon.  Using Cor-Lan adds about $400 to the price of the board, with most of that being in the vacuum bagging process.  So this brings the final cost up to the $2,000 range.  You can still get the standard layup, in the $1,600 range.  When you compare the fact that you can get the exact shape, length, width, thickness, volume, color/graphics, why would I even consider a mass produced board made in China, Taiwan, Korea, or somewhere else.  Look at the price of the 32” wide Naish LE series boards.  $2,500 for a production board, based on last years prototypes. That is crazy.

Dave and I discussed this topic in depth. The actual cost of mass produced boards ranges from $400 to $800, and then with profit, advertising and dealer mark ups, these boards end up at retail prices of $1,500 to $2,800.  Kings boards generally compete with Hobie CM Raw, and L41, and various other local board builders.  Dave believes Hobie and L41 are probably the most competitive, as these are hand made boards, and like Kings, wholly made in the USA.  Hobie cost is about $1,700 and L41 is in the $1,400 range (custom).  So now consider Starboard and Naish, arguably the two top selling manufacturers in the sport.  But why?  You can’t get a custom size or shape from either of them.  There are a couple of threads on this forum that discuss the new Naish models and why they can’t expand the sizes offered.  You can get a production surf oriented Starboard in AST or Carbon, with price between $1,500 and $2,100.  Again, it is still a production board, meaning its not made for you.

Here are some of the things I learned about Kings boards and from Dave that impressed me-

Dave and you design the board to any dimension to fit you
Standard lay up costs about $1,600 and Cor-Lan is about $2,000 (stronger/lighter)
CNC cut blank on a huge 20’+ table (was very impressive to watch)
Blank is finish shaped and then sealed with resin (not spackle)
Lay up can use standard cloth, X-cloth, Cor-Lan or carbon
Any color or design, photo or whatever you want can be put on the board
Even the pad is cnc cut so it fits perfectly
Everything is done at one place, in San Marcos, California
Dave knows what he is doing and is one of the most stylish surfers I have ever seen
Top of the line board is much cheaper than Naish/Starboard and its made for you
The board Dave and I designed, in Cor-Lan will be about 14lbs.

So, to sum up my visit to Kings, coupled with all the testing I have been doing, there is no reason to ever buy a production board again.  I (you) can get exactly what you want with better quality and a real person that stands behind the board.  I would add that Hobie and L41 do the same thing.  You just need to know what you want in a board, and then talk to these manufacturers and figure out who best fits you.  I have yet to ride a Hobie.  I tried to get my schedule to fit in a demo last week while I was down in So-Cal, even talked to the Hobie rep, but their demo program is by appointment only at Dogpatch, so it can be difficult if you are not in the area.  As for L41, I had fun riding a Simsup 3, but I really wanted a traditional surf design.  I am sure there are many other custom manufacturers out there, but these seem to be the most popular.

I hope this helps some of you in your decision making process.  Do your homework and ride as many boards as you can before you buy.  Even if you can't get a specific manufacturers board to ride, try different boards and figure out what you like and don't like in the shapes you can get.  But most of all talk to the board shapers, they really know what they are doing, and what makes a board work.

[supthecreek]

disco... nice write up.... the stoke that Dave has is easily felt. His boards are getting wider notice, and they really deserves it. Thanks for the detailed report on your factory visit.

I agree... the advantage, previously held by production boards, is slipping away.

Local builders are finding multiple ways to achieve lighter, stronger boards then previously achievable.

The ability to constantly tweak shapes, build them strong and light, and at competitive prices, will bend the spotlight to local, rather than production.

All coasts have excellent local builders now... so the collective appeal, will be felt by the dominant overseas factories.

It will be interesting

[Wetstuff]

Counterpoint:  For someone who first saw saltwater at 40 (even then it was 2hr drive to a pitchy beach break) who caught less than a dozen, half-hoot'able waves in a decade ..before breaking off to kitesurf for another decade ..my Fanatic Allwave and Naish Nalu seem just perfect for me.  I will never have the opportunity of location or time-in-water you have already had ..so my basic needs are easily met with proven shapes (well tested and reported on here) and mass production in long established plants.   Given the production volume from companies like Starboard, Naish, Fanatic, etc ...these boards are often available used which can easily make two-for-one economics viable. Plus, they are easily traded and re-sold. 

Before I could stand decently in the ocean, I lusted for one of Kirk's L41 shapes, because I wanted to think a bit of better glass could make me SUP like those of you in Santa Cruz. But after some watertime, I am quite sure not.  I envy your experience, skill, opportunity and location.. but no longer your boards. 

Jim

[supdiscobay]

Wetstuff,
Some good points, thank you.
Growing up an hour away from Santa Cruz and now living 2 hours away from Santa Cruz, my history with surfing has a huge impact on what I buy and from where I buy it.  There was time in Santa Cruz, where you would never paddle out at Pleasure Point on a Haut board, because that was a shaper from the west side of Santa Cruz, and Pleasure Point is east side.  Boards and even wetsuits are territorial in the surfing world.  I think that has diminished somewhat, but the mindset still prevails.  I want to support local shapers and shops.

Now fast forward to Stand Up Paddling.  Naish, Starboard, Fanatic are all windsurf companies that build SUP's.  Why are they so expensive, when they are mass produced?  Why pay $2,800 for the Naish LE series board, when you can get a better board, made just for you for $1,400 to $2,000? And support local businesses at the same time. For me local is anything in California now.  I understand you didn't grow up surfing or near the ocean, but I hope you would believe that supporting local businesses is better, especially when you do get a better product at a lower price.

As to the ability to buy used and sell used, every local board builder has a following in their area and it is very easy to buy or sell a used custom board in the region where that board is made.
Last point, it doesn't matter how many waves you have ridden or how much you get to the waves, there is an L41 board you can easily surf or flatwater paddle.  You can substitute any local builder in for L41 in that statement. Don't stop lusting for that new board.

[ron.c]

It's lunch time and I can't help myself --

While waiting for my King's --  A Haut original, born right on Swift Street, kept me distracted last week.  (circa 1991 still in use and no issues with winds 25-40!

[supdiscobay]

It's lunch time and I can't help myself --

While waiting for my King's --  A Haut original, born right on Swift Street, kept me distracted last week.  (circa 1991 still in use and no issues with winds 25-40!

RonC,
Great shot! Must have been some good winds.  That sail is releasing off the top big time, just like it was designed to do.
I have a couple of Haut surfboards, and a Joe Blair SUP.  I was moving some old wind surfboards around under my deck and noticed that my 8'6" asymmetrical wave board was made by J. Blair, under the "Hawaiian Freestyle" name.  Bought that back in 87'. I haven't sailed in 20 years. Still have all my equipment though, for what it's worth.

[Tamarack Janitor]

This is the #1 thing I have wondered about all the time. I live in north San Diego,  very close to Dave's shop(Kings.) It blows my mind on here that people will spend their hard earned money on a mass produced Sup for anything over 1400-1700. I like Dave's boards he does a excellent job, he is just to expensive himself, The shaper who shapes my sup's is just as good as Dave and way cheaper, matter of fact when I go to his shop I can't help but notice all the Kings boards in there getting repaired. This is not a knock on Dave, this is an example of him even being to expensive to repair his own boards. I will always push a customer his way over a mass produced sup. Getting back to price, I just got a 8'3 sup shaped, and I got to pick everything, color, foam, I went with 1.5, the type of handle, (liftsup) how many fin boxes, etc etc.. Took a little over a month and half to shape and was 950.00 american dollars.. Kings, hobie, Iron cross, these guys all ship all over the country, why do people not look into these boards more??? Save your money people, these boards out surf anything out there, not what I think, its what I know.

[mtmilam]

I just got my 14' All Carbon Kings Board….had it made for Flatwater with the A/C nose (america's Cup wave piercing nose)….the board is so Cool…slices thru the water…I don't surf, so its all flat water for me and Thats what I liked about having a Custom board made.  Its not that much more than the Hobie 14' elite I bought last year. 
Mark

[supstoked]

It is pretty amazing how anyone. Can contact Dave via email, give him their ideas, and he email them back a 3D version of their potential board.

[kwhilden]

I am a big fan of buying SUPs from a local shaper. You get a much better board customized for you as an individual. This is extremely beneficial, especially for surf-specific SUPs. 

I work with my local shaper, Ryan Harris of E-Tech Boards.  He surfs the same break I do, every day, and rides SUPs most of the time.  His shapes are dialed in, and are super fun. A lot of people in the local lineup have boards built by him. He only makes boards with Super Sap resin, so his SUPs are the most sustainable high performance boards available.

Surfboards and SUPs are the last customized sporting equipment left in the USA, and it is extremely cool that we can have a personal relationship with the people that make the gear we love so much!  Don't buy boards made in a factory 1000 miles from the ocean staffed by people who have never seen the ocean, and have never ridden a wave.

[beached]

Don't buy boards made in a factory 1000 miles from the ocean staffed by people who have never seen the ocean, and have never ridden a wave.

i don't think the people in those factories are designing the boards. they merely have the ability to produce them. an extremely tiny number of people have ever been on the moon, and yet, much equipment has been created to allow them to be there. as a kiter, too, if I wasn't willing to buy gear made in a factory 1000 miles away, i couldn't kite, period.

but i certainly agree with you that buying local can be a positive, and i own both Starboard and custom gear...and I am very happy with both.  btw, my custom cost a fair amount more than my Starboard.

[anonsurfer]

I am a big fan of buying SUPs from a local shaper. You get a much better board customized for you as an individual. This is extremely beneficial, especially for surf-specific SUPs. 

Same here.  In most cases you will end up with a better board for less and have supported a local business.  For me, there's also a certain amount of pride in riding a locally shaped board.

[ron.c]

Well - California to Cape Cod, not exactly a local shaper; but my new King's 8-4 x 30 Crossover has moved to the number 1 rack in the garage.  How's it surf?  Like a surfboard -  I know that the music seems to sound better on the way home!

RC

[PonoBill]

The math for why a production board--which is less expensive to make in Asia--winds up costing more than a local custom is very straightforward. Local board cost = materials + labor + profit

Production board = materials + Labor + profit + distribution + dealer profit

If you are producing a product for retail with direct distribution the thumb rule is cost times three is the retail price. If you're going to use distribution (resellers) then it's X 4.

[peterp]

I sell production boards in our local market and both local customs and imported production boards have their pro's and con's:
Cost: As Pono highlighted, depending on the distribution model a custom can be cheaper and typically is because they are sold direct out of factory.
Build Quality: Most production boards are of decent to excellent quality, some customs are of excellent quality.
Shapes: Bigger production brands have a team of riders and shapers giving input and testing the new gear which to a large degree guarantees good performance. A good custom shaper can achieve the same or better provided he SUP's at a high level and knows how to listen to his customers. A lot of our local SUP custom shapers don't SUP and merely use their surfboard/longboard shaping knowledge and/or knock off production boards.
Custom makers can accommodate specific needs/dimensions but most bigger production brands have massive line-ups which will fulfill most needs.
The wait: Production boards are typically in stock and available, customs need to be built which can take months.
Warranty: Production boards can be swapped out immediately if there is a defect, customs will have to be built. Production board resellers tend to have more to lose if they do not sort out defects.
Resale: Production typically hold their resale better as a custom is typically built with only the buyer in mind. Most customs here are built ultra-light which reduces life-span considerably.
Try before you buy: As most of us have experienced this as a crucial part of the decision making process and something which is not possible with a custom - I call it the Local Lotto. I've had customers try 3 or 4 boards and in each instance found that the board didn't do this or that to his liking. They then go and order a custom unseen and untested.....sometimes it works, most times they end up trying another production or end up ordering another custom in search of the holy grail in which case the saving under point 1 is lost.
Production resellers are also local: Whether you are building boards locally or importing and selling production boards locally you are contributing to your local economy. I'd argue that most production board resellers contribute more because their business are scaleable and they have a bigger interest in growing it so they are typically the ones who organise events, demo days and actively try and build the sport - none of our local custom builders have the size or inclination to do this.

Ultimately the customer makes his decision based on a what is right for him in relation to the above considerations and both custom and production sellers need to be sharp on all points.

I love customs, been riding them windsurfing, kiting and SUP and they have their place for niche customers who can't find the right shape in a production board but production boards outsell customs for a reason - it's because they fullfill the needs of the majority of buyers.