twin-fins-or-more-on-a-race-board/so it begins

[Larry Allison]

Just wanted to bring this thread back up showing the Journey to a Reality. Here is a page on Paddleboard Specialists with the 2017 Infinity Lineup with Probox Race Twins and Allison Ventral as a stock item. Thank you my friends for believing in the real deal. Mahalo, Larry 


http://www.paddleboardspecialists.com/prodinfo.asp?number=IN17BL1425NE

[Larry Allison]

Thought I would bump this thread from the recent chain of calls and emails requesting it's info. Thanks for the support my friends. Mahalo

[Pierre]

I really cannot understand why some prefer a ventral fin instead a removable centerboard, about 2 ft ahead of paddler's feet.a centerboard is removable in Dwinding condition and can be bigger in up/side winds. .having a fixednon removable front fin in such conditions is just idiot.  removable centerboard is the easy and efficient solution some of us used it  several years ago.

[Quickbeam]

I've got a second hand Infinity Whiplash, and the ventral fin on my board is most certainly removable.

[SUPflorida]

Not to put words in his mouth but I take what Pierre is saying as it's adjustable on the fly. Yes, you could stop, flip the board over and remove the ventrical fin in theory. But it's not practical.

Furthermore you can't adjust the area...so whatever size you chose is always going to be a compromise. If it's optimum for upwind/side wind it going to be too big downwind...if it sized for downwind it's not going to be optimal for upwind/sidewind.

 Manufactures choose the easiest way with the largest margin...not necessarily the best solution. And think about the warrantee nightmares with the centerboard...they have enough issues with finboxes, handles and leash plugs.

[burchas]

I really cannot understand why some prefer a ventral fin instead a removable centerboard, about 2 ft ahead of paddler's feet.a centerboard is removable in Dwinding condition and can be bigger in up/side winds. .having a fixednon removable front fin in such conditions is just idiot.  removable centerboard is the easy and efficient solution some of us used it  several years ago.

What made you think this is fixed fin is beyond me. I have 3 different ventral sizes for
various conditions, can be attached or removed in 5 seconds flat.

Put it 2 fit from your feet and it starts to work against you. I have 2 ventral boxes installed
on my Blackfish. One is 28" ahead of my feet, the other is 18". the 18 works a lot better
when it gets choppy.

[burchas]

Not to put words in his mouth but I take what Pierre is saying as it's adjustable on the fly. Yes, you could stop, flip the board over and remove the ventrical fin in theory. But it's not practical.

Furthermore you can't adjust the area...

That's exactly the issue with the "on the fly" method. Your stuck with what you chose...
With my ventrals, I can still replace to a different size mid ride. Not ideal for sure but
it's way better than get stuck with the wrong one for the entire ride or with non at all.

[Larry Allison]

I really cannot understand why some prefer a ventral fin instead a removable centerboard, about 2 ft ahead of paddler's feet.a centerboard is removable in Dwinding condition and can be bigger in up/side winds. .having a fixednon removable front fin in such conditions is just idiot.  removable centerboard is the easy and efficient solution some of us used it  several years ago.

Pierre, I can see by your comments you have NO Understanding what a Ventral Fins Purpose is. I am not going to waste my time explaining to you again with all this data here and reviews by users. I will be putting together a 3 part video breaking down the function of a 4 fin application in the Sup world, NOT WINDSURF OR SURFING WORLD!!!!!

[SUPflorida]

Not to put words in his mouth but I take what Pierre is saying as it's adjustable on the fly. Yes, you could stop, flip the board over and remove the ventrical fin in theory. But it's not practical.

Furthermore you can't adjust the area...
[/quote

That's exactly the issue with the "on the fly" method. Your stuck with what you chose...
With my ventrals, I can still replace to a different size mid ride. Not ideal for sure but
it's way better than get stuck with the wrong one for the entire ride or with non at all.

.please expound on your thoughts. Centerboards & dagerboards have the ability to increase/decrease area at any time. So in reality a cenertboard or more accurately a daggerboard in this case, gives countless choices between completely withdrawn to fully deployed and every increment in between ...how is that being stuck with what you choose? I'm not following you?
Hove you ever sailed cats? It would be like a daggerboard vs a fixed keel. In catamaran sailing there is no comparison....daggerboard wins hands down by its ability to adapt to any point of sail.

[burchas]

Not to put words in his mouth but I take what Pierre is saying as it's adjustable on the fly. Yes, you could stop, flip the board over and remove the ventrical fin in theory. But it's not practical.

Furthermore you can't adjust the area...
[/quote

That's exactly the issue with the "on the fly" method. Your stuck with what you chose...
With my ventrals, I can still replace to a different size mid ride. Not ideal for sure but
it's way better than get stuck with the wrong one for the entire ride or with non at all.

.please expound on your thoughts. Centerboards & dagerboards have the ability to increase/decrease area at any time. So in reality a cenertboard or more accurately a daggerboard in this case, gives countless choices between completely withdrawn to fully deployed and every increment in between ...how is that being stuck with what you choose? I'm not following you?
Hove you ever sailed cats? It would be like a daggerboard vs a fixed keel. In catamaran sailing there is no comparison....daggerboard wins hands down by its ability to adapt to any point of sail.

The daggerboard implementation I saw from Pierre was either In or Out, very rudimentary
hand operated engagement mechanism. The template of the this fin is a drag trap and
the placement seemed very off based on my experience.

SIC tried something like this but with a much more refined template and a foot operated
retracting mechanism with a left and right steering position, it sucked and never saw the
light of day.

I can see why Pierre might need that since the boards I've seen from him are very rounded
bottom with crazy roll, but it just seems like a case of diminishing returns where you kill all
the speed of the rounded bottom with the daggerboard drag.

Even with Larry's refined ventral, when switching between the small and the large
ventral, drag is somewhat noticeable but in open ocean roll and chop the added stability
was welcomed. Tried it with a deeper fin and it killed the ride. SUP is not a sailboat.
 

[SUPflorida]

Thanks Burcha for your explanation...I was thinking a much more refined application...not an all or nothing. I have heard before that SIC experimented with a similar concept and pursued it no further. Because Mark did not find merritt in his application does not forever close the books on its overall viability.

Windsurfing went through multiple re-incarnations of the same ideas only to reach significant different outcomes when working together with complimentary advancements.

[burchas]

Because Mark did not find merritt in his application does not forever close the books on its overall viability.

I know what you mean. The only reason I know about it is because I was looking for
solutions my self when I was just starting with SUP. The more I paddled I realized most
conditions can be mitigated with good technic and board design.

Looking back at all the "Crazy" ideas I had I realize how much I've learn since to the
point it all seem like novelty. I can't say that about Larry's 4 fin system which offer
benefits even to the most experienced pros. Still a niche for the performance minded.

[Kieranrsup]

Not to put words in his mouth but I take what Pierre is saying as it's adjustable on the fly. Yes, you could stop, flip the board over and remove the ventrical fin in theory. But it's not practical.

Furthermore you can't adjust the area...
[/quote

That's exactly the issue with the "on the fly" method. Your stuck with what you chose...
With my ventrals, I can still replace to a different size mid ride. Not ideal for sure but
it's way better than get stuck with the wrong one for the entire ride or with non at all.

.please expound on your thoughts. Centerboards & dagerboards have the ability to increase/decrease area at any time. So in reality a cenertboard or more accurately a daggerboard in this case, gives countless choices between completely withdrawn to fully deployed and every increment in between ...how is that being stuck with what you choose? I'm not following you?
Hove you ever sailed cats? It would be like a daggerboard vs a fixed keel. In catamaran sailing there is no comparison....daggerboard wins hands down by its ability to adapt to any point of sail.

The daggerboard implementation I saw from Pierre was either In or Out, very rudimentary
hand operated engagement mechanism. The template of the this fin is a drag trap and
the placement seemed very off based on my experience.

SIC tried something like this but with a much more refined template and a foot operated
retracting mechanism with a left and right steering position, it sucked and never saw the
light of day.

I can see why Pierre might need that since the boards I've seen from him are very rounded
bottom with crazy roll, but it just seems like a case of diminishing returns where you kill all
the speed of the rounded bottom with the daggerboard drag.

Even with Larry's refined ventral, when switching between the small and the large
ventral, drag is somewhat noticeable but in open ocean roll and chop the added stability
was welcomed. Tried it with a deeper fin and it killed the ride. SUP is not a sailboat.

Open ocean? Surely you don't use ventral/multi fin setups  in ocean DW conditions?
Doesn't that adversely effect maneuverability? How do you foot steer and slip and slide with the uneven bumps and troughs with that much drag/fin area?

[warmuth]

  Strictly downwinding in the ocean I can't comment on as I don't get to do any of that here but for general ocean paddling the ventral helps. I removed mine once to see what the difference was and it only took a couple minutes for me to decide to turn around and put it back in. In smaller chop downwinding it does want to run straight for sure, it pretty much refuses to angle across which is understandable since the whole length pretty much stays in the water.

[burchas]

Open ocean? Surely you don't use ventral/multi fin setups  in ocean DW conditions?
Doesn't that adversely effect maneuverability? How do you foot steer and slip and slide with the uneven bumps and troughs with that much drag/fin area?

I wish all my open ocean sessions were downwind runs but the reality for me is more of
open ocean grind. You guys in OZ got it good. And yes, on a pure downwinder it doesn't
make sense to use anything but a single fin.

On a messy downwinder, I can make the case of using the stealth twins as well (3 fins, no ventral)
without being penalized much on rail steering. That would only make sense on an all-water wide
tail boards and maybe pintail boards with very rounded bottom and not pure downwind boards, so
probably non of it relates to your situation.