Author Topic: Another look at drafting- does it help both the leader and the follower?  (Read 19612 times)

Kaihoe

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Re: Another look at drafting- does it help both the leader and the follower?
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2012, 12:09:39 PM »
..... And if they don't you can have a protest flag you raise...oops sorry that's the other sport where everything gets decided after the race  >:(

johnrg

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Re: Another look at drafting- does it help both the leader and the follower?
« Reply #61 on: February 17, 2012, 12:25:18 PM »
If you feel someone has violated the rules you can now tell them to do a 360 and if you feel it is a major violation tell them to do 2 360's.  This is part of the new 2012 WPA guide lines, 11. c).

http://worldpaddleassociation.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/2012-WPA-SUP-RACING-RULEBOOK.pdf

Interesting..... More rules.....

Glad to see this has been added. Self policing and fair, plus for those who like "spectator friendly" will add that too, as a racer has to peel off do a 360/720 and get back to racing. Now for the bouy rules. Would like to see a "unless you have nose to center of adjacent craft overlap,  within set feet to mark, you must stay clear/back and not impede or cause collision with leading craft. (not snaking in and shoving the lead craft then bashing their rails with a paddle, etc.." Penalty of impact requiring a 360 or 720. Clarification of when it's a 360 or 720 is needed but I think this type of regulation is sound and consistent with sailing and buoy racing in general. Full on gladiator/contact racing such as BOP may just be ruleless. Bring your pads and sharpen your paddles so you can easily sink a competitors board as desired.

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Kaihoe

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Re: Another look at drafting- does it help both the leader and the follower?
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2012, 12:35:12 PM »
The WPA rules look ok.

if they are serious about the 'World' bit the rule should be a bit less US centric (rules that mention the US Coastguard really don't imply world thinkigh :-\

To make the 360 rule work will need a few clear rules.

In motorsport the onus is on the overtaking driver (by default it it they are in the wrong and the driver over taken must hold there line, with only one change in direction (no tacking to stop the guys from passing).  For turns there needs to be a clear definition of overlap, how far down the inside of the board you are passing do you have to be to claim the right to the inside line.



Also the drafting rules will only be practical if the orgaanisers provide colored shirt or shorts to differentiate the classes. In the water it can be hard to tell the length of a board, especially when there are both lengths of a single model out there (we have a lot of starboard ACEs racing locally in both lengths, it's only by knowing the person that you can tell the length, except the guys with 14"s also have 12'6"s so could be on either)



johnrg

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Re: Another look at drafting- does it help both the leader and the follower?
« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2012, 12:35:46 PM »
..... And if they don't you can have a protest flag you raise...oops sorry that's the other sport where everything gets decided after the race  >:(

This too is a protest and decide after affair if the parties can't solve it on the water with a verbal protest and 360. Some folks don't know the rules and just go out and charge like windsurfing, when some thought it was just a free for all drag race and would take everyone out at the first turn. There should always be a period after scores are posted for protests as well as simply clarifying positions for the comittee if something was missed or overlooked. Every racer should know the rules before they head out since they can ruin the race of others who may be racing for points or a championship.

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Re: Another look at drafting- does it help both the leader and the follower?
« Reply #65 on: February 17, 2012, 02:35:45 PM »
Little late to the conversation here... but in cycling, drafting helps both the person at the front and the person behind.  When cycling alone, the air that flows over your back tends to collect and "swirl" down by your but and rear wheel, this swirling air is "slow" air and not aerodynamically efficient.  When you put two cyclists together, the same air goes all the way over both cyclists and doesn't get turbulent until it gets behind the second guys, or third or 4th etc. 

Does this equate in anyway to drafting in water craft?  I highly doubt it. 

Drafting definitely works in the water, but it's obviously because of different (water related) principles.

What would be interesting would be if two or three guys came to a race and planned to race as a team.  Guy number one is the "domestique" who paddles his ass off for the first half of the race, while his buddies drafted behind him... When guy #1 is wasted, he peels-off and the other two guys are still relatively fresh... I'm guessing this has already happened somewhere...
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pdxmike

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Re: Another look at drafting- does it help both the leader and the follower?
« Reply #66 on: February 17, 2012, 03:40:17 PM »
What would be interesting would be if two or three guys came to a race and planned to race as a team.  Guy number one is the "domestique" who paddles his ass off for the first half of the race, while his buddies drafted behind him... When guy #1 is wasted, he peels-off and the other two guys are still relatively fresh... I'm guessing this has already happened somewhere...
A similar thing is common in running.  Say a guy is trying to break a record for 1,500m.  There'll be a "rabbit" whose job is to lead at the correct pace for 800 or 1200, then drop off or drop out.  There's some air resistance benefit, but a lot of the benefit is that it's much easier for the record breaker to tuck into second place with no mental effort expended to lead, determine the pace, etc.  It happens in marathons all the time also.  It's very effective, which also means that people who break records or go fast without that deserve a lot more respect. 

When I ran my fastest marathon, I ran the entire second half alongside Jim Pearson, a great runner from Bellingham.  I wasn't drafting, I was alongside him.  But it took all the mental pressure off me.  All I had to think about was staying on his shoulder.  I'd go 100 yards, then figure if I made it for that, then I'd try 100 yards more.  Plus, seeing that he was the American 50-mile record holder, that pace and distance was just a training run for him, so it made a great difference running with someone so relaxed.  So I keep going back to drafting giving great advantages beyond reducing air or water resistance. 

Kaihoe

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Re: Another look at drafting- does it help both the leader and the follower?
« Reply #67 on: February 17, 2012, 04:41:53 PM »
..... And if they don't you can have a protest flag you raise...oops sorry that's the other sport where everything gets decided after the race  >:(

This too is a protest and decide after affair if the parties can't solve it on the water with a verbal protest and 360. Some folks don't know the rules and just go out and charge like windsurfing, when some thought it was just a free for all drag race and would take everyone out at the first turn. There should always be a period after scores are posted for protests as well as simply clarifying positions for the comittee if something was missed or overlooked. Every racer should know the rules before they head out since they can ruin the race of others who may be racing for points or a championship.

John

John

 I agree at the serious end of the scale there needs to be a comeback to ensure that those acting in an unsporting manner do not benefit, and that is not always practical to judge at the time.

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Kaihoe

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Re: Another look at drafting- does it help both the leader and the follower?
« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2012, 04:47:46 PM »
What would be interesting would be if two or three guys came to a race and planned to race as a team.  Guy number one is the "domestique" who paddles his ass off for the first half of the race, while his buddies drafted behind him... When guy #1 is wasted, he peels-off and the other two guys are still relatively fresh... I'm guessing this has already happened somewhere...
A similar thing is common in running.  Say a guy is trying to break a record for 1,500m.  There'll be a "rabbit" whose job is to lead at the correct pace for 800 or 1200, then drop off or drop out.  There's some air resistance benefit, but a lot of the benefit is that it's much easier for the record breaker to tuck into second place with no mental effort expended to lead, determine the pace, etc.  It happens in marathons all the time also.  It's very effective, which also means that people who break records or go fast without that deserve a lot more respect. 

When I ran my fastest marathon, I ran the entire second half alongside Jim Pearson, a great runner from Bellingham.  I wasn't drafting, I was alongside him.  But it took all the mental pressure off me.  All I had to think about was staying on his shoulder.  I'd go 100 yards, then figure if I made it for that, then I'd try 100 yards more.  Plus, seeing that he was the American 50-mile record holder, that pace and distance was just a training run for him, so it made a great difference running with someone so relaxed.  So I keep going back to drafting giving great advantages beyond reducing air or water resistance. 

PDX I agree there are a number of benefits. This is a problem I see with the WPA rules of no cross gender drafting. This is a huge disadvantage to the good women out there, they are seriously fast but in any one race they will have almost no chance of being able to draft another women, where as all the men around them will have that advantage. I say if you are going fast enough to catch the draft then you have a right to be there.

If there is a strong field of elite women it might be different.

pdxmike

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Re: Another look at drafting- does it help both the leader and the follower?
« Reply #69 on: February 17, 2012, 05:12:18 PM »
Kaihoe--I'd heard of the class limit on drafting but not the gender one.  I was thinking why not let a 50- or 60-year-old guy draft with a 25-year-old woman?  At the front of races, you get a bunch of guys all legally able to draft together, but after the front, you have a combination of slower guys, faster women, etc.  who could also benefit from drafting but can't because of the gender rule.

But your comment about faster women having nobody to draft with is even more convincing.  So a woman could be every bit as fast as the men around her if no drafting is allowed, but if it is--but limited to same gender--then she can't keep up with those same men.  She will finish surrounded by men slower than her who kept up with her because they could draft off each other, but she was excluded. 

I swim with a woman who has a ton of national and world masters records.   She hates national meets, because at the local meet, you are seeded in heats according to predicted time only and men and women race together, but in the national meets, you swim only against your own gender and age group.  So she has no competition at the national meets.  She hates being segregated from the men who are her equals.  The drafting rule causes a similar problem for women and especially faster women, and for juniors, or slow men, or anyone who wants to draft but isn't surrounded by lots of people in their own class.  The slow men can try to go faster to move up to larger packs of men so they can draft, but the women are out of luck.

Also, those rules need some editing.  As they are written, "avoiding a collision and adhering to the drafting rules" is a violation of the rules.  There are mistakes like that all over the place.  They don't really make any difference to me--I'm with Easy Rider on rules and fun not mixing--but they're pretty sloppy for applying to high-stakes races.

Strand Leper

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Re: Another look at drafting- does it help both the leader and the follower?
« Reply #70 on: February 17, 2012, 05:21:03 PM »
Judging from some of the women that I have seen paddling, and racing and surfing... I am VERY upset about this no "gender mixing" drafting rule...

Perhaps admin can weigh in at some point... but I am pretty sure that this is a Zionist conspiracy of some sort... the "ultraorthodox" interpretation of the rules, if you will...
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PonoBill

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Re: Another look at drafting- does it help both the leader and the follower?
« Reply #71 on: February 17, 2012, 05:39:45 PM »
Oh, sure, so you can stare at a guys but for ten miles but not a woman's? There's definitely a conspiracy here. Next their going to say we have to wear speedos and spaghetti strap tank tops--which I really rock, BTW, but that's another issue.
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Slow Ride

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Re: Another look at drafting- does it help both the leader and the follower?
« Reply #72 on: February 17, 2012, 06:56:05 PM »
Good to hear some feed back on these rules: Kaihoe agree with you the rules should be reviewed for mistakes.  It does seem there are a few who would like to keep the women behind them; 14' foot for men 12' 6" for women, and gender drafting.  I can't see the 360 rule working, "Hey you do a 360, no two 360s that is a major violation.....Wait I need to write down your number...where is my pencil and paper....Hey and that is not a protest flag so quit raising that finger to me!" :) Seems like they are forgetting the roots of the sport, and the Aloha vibe..... Has anyone been in a race where they would tell someone else to do a 360 or 720?

johnrg

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Re: Another look at drafting- does it help both the leader and the follower?
« Reply #73 on: February 17, 2012, 08:18:49 PM »
While any rules may seem an affront they really are something that can preserve the aloha. The point in most boat racing rules is to avoid contact and damage at all costs. Sailing has more rules for right of way but the rules for mark roundings are just like any other form of racing. There will always be light contact and everyone agrees about that unless we have huge starting lines and long first legs to spread the field. The rules IMO should make most races cleaner and provide a guide for etiquette on the course. I do agree the 360/720 is ambiguous as is and needs clarification. It will come....

John

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Re: Another look at drafting- does it help both the leader and the follower?
« Reply #74 on: February 17, 2012, 08:51:50 PM »
 I think that small contact explosives should be placed on the tails of all boards. They should be set to explode at different forces depending on impact strength and same class or not.
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