Author Topic: When does a tailwinder become a downwinder?  (Read 22632 times)

pdxmike

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When does a tailwinder become a downwinder?
« on: October 02, 2011, 02:37:43 PM »
There may be stupid questions, but is there a particular wind speed or other conditions needed to distinguish a downwinder from just paddling with the wind at your back? 

I've paddled lots with the wind at my back on the Willamette River and Puget Sound, but not in true downwind conditions like I see in the videos from Hood River, Maui, Melbourne, etc.  I certainly can feel some glide, but not to the point of being able to stop paddling more than a second or two.  Is there some minimum wind speed that you need?  And once the wind is strong enough, does that mean you have downwinder conditions, or do you need something happening with swell that doesn't automatically happen just from having a strong wind?   

Seeing Greatdane's lake downwinder video and hearing about people downwinding in Puget Sound and Lake Washington has got me thinking about this.  I'm also planning to continue paddling here as weather gets worse and there are more windy days.

Also, I have no skills in regard to moving my feet around.  Does it get windy enough on the Willamette that I would be able to glide longer if I learned to step back on the board?  Is "reading the water" and learning how to respond something that doesn't matter until you have very strong winds? 

I guess I also need to get up to the Gorge and see what the real conditions are like...



headmount

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Re: When does a tailwinder become a downwinder?
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2011, 03:07:35 PM »
PDX- What I think of as a downwinder seems to occur once the wind speed is close to 20(I've seen 15 be pretty good), really good at 30 and when it touches 40 really cool things set up.  That being said sometimes high winds can just result in a mess that really can't be deciphered, for instance if there are multiple swells affecting the course.  We get that on the Maliko run in the winter where it's crossed up with a groundswell from the NW.  On the southside of Maui it's like a lake where the wind begins from land and as you move offshore the grain slowly sets up to what is usually a perfectly groomed corduroy.  So really the definition is that wind swells set up where you can glide for up to a few minutes sometimes.  Much longer than most breaking waves.  Do you snowboard?  If not, in order to figure out your back foot,  stand parallel and have someone push you back.  Don't think just step back with your foot square and centered.  Then start practicing that when you're just standing around ... anywhere.  Get quick at it and you'll be underway.  Gotta go meet LaPer for a run right now.  Tell me how it goes.

DavidJohn

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Re: When does a tailwinder become a downwinder?
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2011, 03:10:23 PM »
I don't think you can call it a real down-winder unless you're catching runners and surfing them.. Anything less than that IMO is just a flat water paddle with a slight tail wind.. I think to make wind waves big enough to surf you really need it to be white-capping and that happens at around 10-15 knots.. I would normally concider 15-20 knots the minimum wind for a real DW'er.

DJ
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 03:12:10 PM by DavidJohn »

PonoBill

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Re: When does a tailwinder become a downwinder?
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2011, 03:52:38 PM »
Mike, you have to make it up to the Gorge some day when the wind is hitting 30 or so. It's just silly fun all the way. Ditto to what everyone has said, if you're not surfing swells it's not a "downwinder". We probably need a better word, but I was never entranced with SUP either. It sounds like a bladder condition involving bacteria.

It's criminal that you live 45 minutes from some of the best downwinding in the world, own the right equipment, know people who will be happy to give you a rational intro, and haven't yet done it. Of course it's a lot like crack, and it will take over a substantial part of your life, but if you think you like paddling now, wait till you get a load of downwinders.
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ObviousSup

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Re: When does a tailwinder become a downwinder?
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2011, 07:16:39 PM »
Also, I have no skills in regard to moving my feet around.  Does it get windy enough on the Willamette that I would be able to glide longer if I learned to step back on the board? 

With just modest wind and the minimal swell of Willamette, stepping back wouldn't help enough. Though I admit I haven't spent as much time watching the river during storms to see how much swell a windy day creates.
Moving your weight fore and aft will help adjust your board speed to the wave speed. As you move forward the board will pick up more speed (unless you bury the nose) and as you move back it should slow down.
Here is a good video that shows how the board reacts to trim adjustments.
Standup Paddleboard Wakesurf :)

As for more glide on the Willamette maybe more surface area to catch the wind. Maybe a Halloween cape could be reused. Though if you decide to give it a try let me know so I can get some pictures.  ;D

pb12

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Re: When does a tailwinder become a downwinder?
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2011, 08:39:59 PM »
In my very limited experience in narrow harbour conditions with limited fetch. Glides start to happen and some bumps are ridden at about 15knts. Once it's 20knts you are in downwind conditions and big smiles start to appear.

(as long as you are riding a Naish Glide 14' that is  ;))
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1paddle2paddle

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Re: When does a tailwinder become a downwinder?
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2011, 12:37:02 PM »
IMO wind fetch is more important than wind speed.

I think your post really brings up the idea of how important the fetch is to the run.  Because the Hawaii Kai run starts in the lee of land, it really starts out as what could be called a "tailwinder" but after several miles (assuming at least 15-20 knot winds) the wind has sufficiently worked on the water that small wind waves have been created and the run could be called, for the purposes of this discussion, a downwinder.

pdxmike

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Re: When does a tailwinder become a downwinder?
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2011, 12:52:00 PM »
Thanks for all the replies, everyone.  Now that I've gone from avoiding wind and wakes to enjoying them and seeking them out,doing downwinders and surfing is next.  The wakesurfing looks pretty great, too.  I also have a wetsuit now, which I didn't have last fall, so I can keep on paddling into the worse weather.   I look right at the river from my house, so if I see whitecaps, I'm going out. 

What's the downwinder season in the Gorge?  Do people continue going out past summer, or do they stop due to wind conditions (too little or too much) or cold water? 

greatdane

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Re: When does a tailwinder become a downwinder?
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2011, 01:13:12 PM »
We do our lake and bay "downwinders" year around... even when the air temp is below freezing, so I'm guessing the Hood River boys never quit either!  Last winter there were two days on the bay where sustained winds were approaching 45 mph with gusts to 60, and we actually chose to not go out... didn't feel like a good day to die.

I consider it a good lake downwind run if I only have to paddle about half the trip... not bad for a lake crossing.  Very occasionally I even get a "no paddle take-off" which puts a big smile on the face... I'm sure at Hood and Maliko they barely have to paddle at all. 
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pdxmike

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Re: When does a tailwinder become a downwinder?
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2011, 01:26:30 PM »
Greatdane--now that you mention it, I remember driving up to a client's house in the Gorge one winter day when the wind hit 100 mph at Crown Point.  I think I got some good glides in on the road in my Honda Element. 

Tecpartner

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Re: When does a tailwinder become a downwinder?
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2011, 04:51:36 PM »
There has to be swell, and it has to be moving in roughly same direction as the wind.

ObviousSup

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Re: When does a tailwinder become a downwinder?
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2011, 05:28:02 PM »
I don't think the Willamette is wide enough or straight enough to get much in the way of swells.

bean

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Re: When does a tailwinder become a downwinder?
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2011, 06:50:24 AM »
The term downwinder only describes a heading in the same general direction of the wind.  The term itself does not describe the level of intensity.

headmount

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Re: When does a tailwinder become a downwinder?
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2011, 11:09:31 AM »
Bean... you sure got that right.

pb12

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Re: When does a tailwinder become a downwinder?
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2011, 03:02:44 PM »
You will be suprised at the fun that can be had on such unlikely stretches of water. Rideable bumps appear very quickly (I would not call them swells). If you've got a 3km (2mi) stretch and 20knts blowing against the current then I'd get out there. Of course a longer fetch and more wind is going to better. Maliko will be better too.
These conditions make up a lot of our DW paddling around here and we get plenty of smiles. It's a challenge to eek out good glides in such locations/conditions. You do get some and before you know it you will link one or two or the wind will bump up to 25knts for a lot of fun.

You probably wont need your GoPro though.

Give the Willamette a go. As for skills.....just learn as you go.

pb12
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 03:12:06 PM by pb12 »
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