Stroke Technique; Staggered Stance

[jeds2000]

This post kind of spawns from the parallel stance post that has been a hot topic lately...

In my efforts to learn stroke technique for racing I have been experimenting with a staggered stance. See if you guys can visualize this and then please comment:

I currently use 4 different strokes when racing/training for flat water races. The first 3 all use a parallel stance. The strokes are the Tahitian Stroke, the Hawaiian Stroke, what I call the Todd Bradley Stroke (as he defines it on You Tube, using a bent top arm for entry etc…) and what I call a staggered stroke. The staggered stroke is the one I would like to hear your comments on.

Stand parallel on your board and then stagger your feet  to either side with one foot slightly forward of your parallel stance position and one foot slightly back.  On your back foot side,  paddle with a strong Hawaiian Stroke (You will be kind of facing this side). As you switch to the other side (your front foot side), use a Tahitian stroke, all the while keeping your same stance. The benefit on the forward foot side is that your hips and shoulders are in a good position for a Tahitian stroke. The benefit on the rear foot side is that  you are in a good triangular position for a strong Hawaiian stroke (at least if feels that way).

Stay in this same stance for about 5 minutes and then switch your feet to the opposite positions and go through the same process again. Your Tahitian stroke will be on the other side now and same with your Hawaiian stroke. 

One common element is to use as much reach as possible on both sides. Of course cadence will be higher on the Tahitian side. Power will be greater on the Hawaiian side. You do not have to constantly reposition your feet. I can't say for sure that it is my fastest stroke (of the 4 I mentioned above) but I can say that it compliments well with the others.

[SoCalSupper]

my head exploded about 3rd paragraph until i realized i kinda automatically do what you described-at least the staggered stance part-after that i lose you and immediately fall into the "Crap im in last place hurry up and flail" stance!
I also noticed today i was standing way too far back on my board-my son told me to move up closer to the front of the board and wow what a difference.
Not sure why i dont stand parallel naturally-always figured it was cuz i sup surf way  more than i distance paddle-or i was just a kook...

[LaPerouseBay]

In my efforts to learn stroke technique for racing I have been experimenting with a staggered stance. See if you guys can visualize this and then please comment:

Excellent idea.  I'll try it for sure.   

Sounds like a great drill.   

[PonoBill]

Interesting. I use the three strokes you mention, I think of the third as the Todd Bradley stroke also. When I get tired I switch to that for a rest. I also find I can increase my reach by drilling with that stroke--came from Dave talking about pulling back the upper shoulder. I'm going to have to try your method, if only as a drill.

[upwinder]

Curious, I find myself doing something similar but for me it's kind of evolved from shifting my feet around so they don't cramp up. The different strokes each side sort of followed, but can't remember which one goes on what side  

Shall give this some more thought on tomorrow morning's paddle.

[dalidali]

After today, when paddling with the staggered stance with powerful external rotation of the hip finally clicked, I am convinced that within a very short time, SUP racing will be dominated by those who can adapt the entire biomechanics of this technique and are able to employ it.

Besides paddling faster with less effort, I could pick a better stroke rate (or in other words a better rhythm/cycling of my movements)and even my steering became more efficient.

I am quite certain that the paddler who is in full possession of all the elements of the technique related to the staggered stance (which allows for and promotes the superefficient use of the large muscles of the pelvic girdle) will dominate flatwater SUP racing. The paralel stance which doesn't allow the full and effective employment of the large core muscles will soon be a thing of the past.

This technique with staggered stance, derived from C1 paddling technique, is an evolutionary/revolutionary step up from the "traditional" paralel stance and the limited efficiency of paddling movement that goes with it.

[surfcowboy]

I was out yesterday and coincidentally tried the staggered stance for a bit. Reading this, I think it's a good idea, but I'm concerned about it's effect on my stroke, as I'm still pretty sloppy when focused on one or two strokes, the addition of the stance changes and keeping track of what to do where might be a bit much for me to manage, at this stage.

It's true, you can get some crazy power on the one "strong" side when in this stance and it's great for training switch ups, as long as it doesn't give me bad habits.

Time will tell, it's great to see things get pushed and challenged. Part of the fun of a new sport.

[PonoBill]

I realized yesterday while paddling my Naish Glide 14 (in Hood River) that I always use a staggered stance when I'm on a ruddered board and not when I'm on a non-rudder board. Of course on the rudder board I never switch the stance, I'm usually keeping my rudder foot pinned and hopping all about with my rear foot except when I'm running to the back of the board on a big swell. Yesterday on the glide I tried some stagger positions and worked them into my drill, which includes focusing on my hips. I use Dave's advice (http://www.davidkalama.com/2010/12/use-your-hips/ ) to push my hips towards the paddle. It's the only way I've found that actually works. It delivers a powerful stroke, but it's exhausting both physically and mentally. That means it's something I need to work on.

[jeds2000]

Good feedback thus far. Much appreciated. I used this staggered stroke a good bit in a training race this weekend. As you guys point out, on your strong side the stroke just "feels" good efficient and you are able to steer surprisingly well in this position too. On flat water, I end up using about 75% of my strokes on this strong side because of the improved steering.  I do notice however that as the water gets rougher, I find myself preferring the parallel stance. In the smooth, I am doing more and more staggered though. Keep em coming...

[blueplanetsurf]

Check this video of Jim Terrell sprinting V1 style;
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1924850131444#&comments

[XLR8]

Jim really did a great job in that sprint race.  Never switched sides the whole time. I notice, though, you don't see even a little hip rotation as he is working that stroke.

I've been playing with hip rotation in my stroke technique and feel it can be really helpful.  Sometimes it throws off my balance a little and I wonder if it negatively affects my reach.  Seems like it should help with reach.

I'm really interested in hearing more from others on these stroke techniques.  This is very helpful.

[C1SUPer]

XLR8, I disagree.  I see lots of hip movement.  His hips aren't rotating way forward at the beginning of each stroke.  THEY DON'T NEED TO.  They are "squaring up" as much as his extreme staggered stance allows.  The rotation comes once the blade is buried and supported in the water.  His paddling side hips are rotating powerfully backward so that the main force generated in the pull is coming from his hips.  His arms are essentially just connectors to the paddle and his shoulders, etc are serving to stabilize the blade in the water, nothing more.  This is excellent and effective hip rotation.

This motion is the essential movement of effective C1 technique.  It is so widely accepted that EVERYBODY does it in sprint canoe, though some clearly do it better than others.  I could go on at great length to explain the advantages of this technique when applied to a stand up board and it doesn't necessarily require the degree of stagger that Jimmy is using here.  I think the confusion among SUPers arises because people think you have to rotate your paddling side hip forward to get more reach or something.  Actually this is the last thing you want to do as it jams up your hips and prevents them from supplying the power provided from the motion I have described above. 

Nice job, Jim!!

[pdxmike]

Thanks Blueplanetsurf for the Terrell video and to everyone for the thoughts about the staggered stance.  I love seeing techniques evolve.  Just when you think some aspect is beyond question, someone comes along and through their success forces everyone to rethink the accepted wisdom.   

In swimming, technique has moved all over the place over the last few years.  One of the interesting things is how things to out of vogue and then back in.   Several years ago almost everyone abandoned the typical start for the split-legged "track start" dive--now some fast swimmers are switching back.  Straight-arm crawl stroke almost disappeared as the science seemed to prove it was worse than bent-arm.  Now the fastest sprinters have switched back to straight-arm because the momentum you gain from it makes it faster for sprinting.   

The other thing you see is swimmers using widely varying techniques in side-by-side competition.  What works for one doesn't work for the other.  Maybe that will become the case with paddling, as was true in the Terrell video.

I also won't be surprised to see people paddling in five years in ways that nobody today can imagine would make sense.

[XLR8]

C1SUPer, thanks for detailing it like that.  I've been watching the heck out of this video since your post.  I finally had to switch to some internet porn when my wife walked through the room so she wouldn't get ticked at me for watching more paddle technique videos again.  Thankfully she didn't stay long and I switched over to the video again.

I think your comment might really speak to a bad habit I've been developing without realizing it.  I guess it was a matter of looking for some extreme rotation at the beginning of the stroke but it makes sense...he's already squared up.

What about the wide stance that he is demonstrating?  I just need to get out and paddle and experiment.  Not till Thursday.

Thanks!

[C1SUPer]

XLR8, the stance Jimmy is using there is pretty extreme, but allows him to be pretty close to his C1 position but standing.  I think it'd be great for sprints but is probably too extreme for distance paddling.  And that is saying nothing of the difficulty involved in changing stance from one side to the other.

As a C1 paddler as well I have used a staggered stance from the beginning on a SUP.  As I haven't really tried to sprint like that I have never really gone with such a big spread between feet.  I generally have the front half of my inside foot on the deck of the Bark and my paddling side foot toed outwards with the toe around the heel of my inside foot.  Sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less.  Definitely a little less in bigger water but still staggered.

Advantages?

1.  Way easier to engage hip properly (squared up at catch and then dynamic torque back of paddling side hip to initiate pull.  Paddling side hip turning forward to paddle to initiate exit).  This is where ALL my power comes from.  Everything else is just a connector to the paddle or stabilizes it.

2.  Hugely increases the ability to get on top of the paddle.  When I was learning I saw a Todd Bradley video on you tube telling you not to lean forward as it compresses the board.  I couldn't disagree more.  Getting as on top of the paddle as possible LIFTS the board making it sit higher in the water and easier to move to (and past) the planted, secured, paddle.

3.  Being more on top of the paddle also allows you to steer better.  You should be able to paddle indefinitely on one side if you want to.  I strongly believe we should change sides because we want to, not because we have to in order to steer.  At least once/week I will go 5km on the left, then 5km on the right. 

The amount of stagger I am using allows me to paddle SUP like I paddle C1.  It feels VERY similar.  Using the hips to supply most of the power means that the most heavily muscled joint in the body, with the least fragile connective tissue is doing most of the work.  The muscles here are in the closest proximity to the major blood vessels so are more easily supplied with oxygen and cleared of waste products than more peripheral muscles.  With a little bit of dryland work to train these muscles and a good neural pathway laid down to make technique natural and automatic, you should be able to provide huge amounts of power for long, long periods of time without tiring.  The only drawback is you have to switch your stagger when you change sides.  I am finding that is not difficult.  As I am becoming more comfortable on the board I am finding a little hop each time I change sides easy takes care of adjusting the stance.

The comments from a lot of posters here are quite interesting and confirm the observations I have made about power and steering.  I think if everyone better understood how to engage their hips they would definitely advocate this stance over a parallel one.