Messages

16

SUP General / Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....

« on: April 12, 2019, 12:04:58 PM »

The problem though is that being a good waterman isn't the same as being a good athlete. For example, if the conditions are hot, relying on water alone for fluid intake (as one account mentions) is like something out of the dark ages for conditions this severe. It just needs time for the laidback nature of SUP to catch up with other sports so that paddlers look after themselves holistically - not just in terms of technical skill.

...

That's only according to "your" science.

There are many different theories on nutrition, and many examples of natives exploding this theories.

OK, when I say natives you think of Tarahumara indians, Pokot, Kalahari bushmen, etc. There's a local (good old continental european white) guy here I know who still holds the record for the ascent&descent of Everest. He does, well did, >8000m summits in a day going fast and light with only a snickers bar and 1/2 a liter of water.

Save your breath. He'll be the first to admit it isn't what your science advises. He's 70 now and I don't think you're going change him.

There are a ton of outliers. Point being nutrition is personal and it's mostly about reservoirs of strength and digging deep into potential. As the village kids here have shown over and over (a few world champions in ultra endurance sports here, and I guarantee you they eat more cheese on a weekly basis than you could ever imagine). They'll be the first to tell you it's all in the training.

I think Titou played it smart resting at home in slightly cooler conditions and arriving the night before the race. He has a degree in sports coaching BTW.

As to your second point, you're basically comparing a race of 1-1.5 hours to 2-3 hours. Its different in terms of its demands (the shorter one will be roughly about 5% higher in terms of exercise intensity). As you say, that would put off amateurs and for paddlers it requires a bit more volume to get the best out of it. I personally hate races of that length in any sport but if I were doing them, I'd need sessions of 3-4 hours in length behind me. Sod that.

... and there I was subscribing to the theory you only need to train half as much as race day.

[prefer mine just BTW]

C’mon Yugi. You know as well as I do that the science on nutrition is pretty much universally published and understood - even if its actual application needs to be tailored slightly to an athlete. It’s not snake oil. If these guys are going out there on water without even experimenting with modern fluid nutrition they are fools to themselves. Some of the outliers I suspect are better at utilising fat for fuel.

As for training distances - it’s the difference between completing and maximising your aerobic engine development really. For example, the 2012 GB Team Pursuit track cycling squad (who typically raced over 4 minutes), I know were still putting in some rides of upto 6 hours in length to develop their engine as much as they could.

17

SUP General / Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....

« on: April 12, 2019, 06:37:42 AM »

You might be right, although it is odd that elite *locals* who are world-class watermen would not know what they require for such a course.

But what is gained by having a race that is 24kms rather than 12 (apart from putting amateurs off racing because few people have the time to train for such long events)?

The problem though is that being a good waterman isn't the same as being a good athlete. For example, if the conditions are hot, relying on water alone for fluid intake (as one account mentions) is like something out of the dark ages for conditions this severe. It just needs time for the laidback nature of SUP to catch up with other sports so that paddlers look after themselves holistically - not just in terms of technical skill.

As to your second point, you're basically comparing a race of 1-1.5 hours to 2-3 hours. Its different in terms of its demands (the shorter one will be roughly about 5% higher in terms of exercise intensity). As you say, that would put off amateurs and for paddlers it requires a bit more volume to get the best out of it. I personally hate races of that length in any sport but if I were doing them, I'd need sessions of 3-4 hours in length behind me. Sod that.

18

SUP General / Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....

« on: April 12, 2019, 01:19:11 AM »

I think they should think about the conditions then decide the race distance and in that heat it should be half to 12km.

That sounds sensible. I wonder how the rank positions differed at the full distance from the ones at the halfway mark? My guess is that they weren’t greatly different, and in fact the finishes of the race might have been even more exciting if it had only been 12k.

If it’s so hot and humid that you’ve got Tahitians wilting in the heat, then maybe something isn’t quite right. The people from cold climates would likely be at a huge disadvantage. Maybe that is one reason that Yuka was able to pass Olivia, and pull away, so easily?

In my view, it's just poor preparation on the part of the athletes. There are plenty of sports that have to contend with such hot/humid conditions but they just equip and fuel appropriately. What likely happened is that the weather was extreme and the athletes merely equipped themselves as they would do in most races rather than doing their homework. I don't have a lot of sympathy in that case.

19

SUP General / Re: SUP racing growing ? Uhm.....

« on: April 12, 2019, 01:17:01 AM »

I’m sure the fact that there were drug tests has nothing to do with the absence of some big names.

A controversial claim there.......

20

Flatwater and Touring / Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race

« on: April 05, 2019, 12:00:00 AM »

He did not say if he was to become a team rider or whatever is the equivalent and race next year sponsored by Nelo and Braca or not at all.

He isn't a team rider. He's currently being loaned demo boards by the UK's distributor on a short-term basis. However, a paddler of his standard (he's ex-C1 Hungarian national squad), will no doubt be pursuing such an arrangement at some point I would imagine. I would say that his account provides some natural bias towards that. However, you can read that account as someone out there using a tippy board...... albeit in very challenging conditions (I was out there round the corner on a demo Nelo surf ski having a similar experience but I didn't see it as a negative thing either - some might).

For what its worth, he's raced the 24.75 twice now. One was a winter low key race a fortnight ago (beating our longstanding national champion in the process) and the second was a win in our National Sprint Championships last weekend. He's got the skills to eventually tame the 23 width of that board but aside from the likes of Bruno (who currently has got social media footage of him using a 22 inch version in rough water at full speed), the 23 inch width boards are frankly beyond 99.9% of us in my view.

21

Sneak Peeks, Rumors, and Wish Lists / Re: Quickblade U-V 88

« on: March 29, 2019, 04:01:22 PM »

Paddle lengths continue to get shorter and blade faces smaller. This is wise but should be matched to the physiology and padding style of each paddler. Bearing in mind what the pros use, I'd say most paddlers are using something too big for themselves.

My main paddle is the BP88 and I'd go sub 80 next - even at my size.

22

Flatwater and Touring / Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race

« on: March 29, 2019, 01:14:00 AM »

ukgm - that might work for you since you will be talking to highly skilled riders. But most people aren’t. The information you get from less experienced paddlers is highly variable in quality.

I reckon you could get a custom that would be much better for you than anything you’ve tried so far, for you. But since you aren’t willing to take the financial risk that would involve, we’ll never know.

I reckon you could handle a narrower board with your self-professed balance excellence but since you aren’t willing to take the financial risk or put the hours in, we’ll never know that either 

Au contraire, Pansy Potter, I did put my money where my mouth is, and I did find my limit. It was a humiliating and expensive experience. Like you, I decided at that point there there was no point competing any more. But then I didn’t get much out of racing anyway - I enjoyed the training but the races were usually a rather hollow and dispiriting experience, far away from the joy of paddling. So now, unlike you, I just do the training. But it has to be on boards so wide that they would mark me out as a sad old man (which I am) at all but the smallest local races, where I’d be getting my butt comprehensively kicked by the best 14 year-olds.

But today I spent 2 hours surfing my raceboard in rippy conditions, and didn’t fall in or wipeout at all in that session, which covered nearly 8 miles. And that’s how I like it. Stable enough to rarely fall. In 15 or so years when you are my age and you can’t even stand on the boards the teenagers are paddling, you’ll probably feel similarly. No need to make it any harder than it has to be. After 12 years of SUPing 4x week on average, and at my age, my balance skills aren’t going to miraculously improve not matter how much I struggle with a super-narrow board: I have reached a plateau determined by age and the hard demands of life.

Personally, you should have done my event this weekend and kicked some wrinkly arse in your age group. We'll never know the result of that either. Nobody uses a narrow board past 50 

23

Flatwater and Touring / Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race

« on: March 28, 2019, 03:35:33 PM »

ukgm - that might work for you since you will be talking to highly skilled riders. But most people aren’t. The information you get from less experienced paddlers is highly variable in quality.

I reckon you could get a custom that would be much better for you than anything you’ve tried so far, for you. But since you aren’t willing to take the financial risk that would involve, we’ll never know.

I reckon you could handle a narrower board with your self-professed balance excellence but since you aren’t willing to take the financial risk or put the hours in, we’ll never know that either 

24

Flatwater and Touring / Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race

« on: March 28, 2019, 07:24:47 AM »

For instance, when someone says a board is very stable, don't just take it for granted. Ask them what they are comparing it to.

Good luck with that. Any thread that I have seen on this board that begins with "What 14' board for x conditions" devolves into a hair-splitting discussion of epic proportions. "In knee high cross-chop, x board is waaay more stable if you weigh 165 and the sun is over your left shoulder."

That’s funny, but true. But it reflects the huge variety of experiences of paddlers. It’s pretty much hopeless asking someone else how stable a board is, really. We are all so different, and the conditions we paddle in, and the level of difficulty we will tolerate, are so varied.

I can now tell just by looking at a board whether it will provide the level of stability I require. It has taken 12 years of trying scores - maybe hundreds - of boards in a huge range of conditions to get to that point. And a lot of uncomfortable “reality checks” too, along the way. I don’t really see a way round that. Sometimes there is no substitute for hands-on experience, especially when it relates to self-knowledge.

I personally find that someone telling you what their previous board was prior to that one (and the volume/type of experience they have) is enough normally for me to work out whether a board should be on my demo list or not.

25

Flatwater and Touring / Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race

« on: March 27, 2019, 03:51:31 AM »

1) And many people (indeed, perhaps even most of the entire SUP-user population) are worse balance-wise than I am.

2) Some people’s balance abilities are simply extraordinary. And there are quite a few of them, and for obvious reasons they tend to be those who get asked to do reviews more often than the average SUPer. But they really have NO IDEA how bad the rest of us are, or that what they find so trivial is extremely difficult or totally impossible for the vast majority of people.

3) I *can* paddle a 21.5x14 but it is a horrible, and very slow, experience.

1) Try it when you've got my mass and centre of gravity ! I've no doubt that most racers have better balance than I do. It's mainly as I'm lazy at training it and partly as I'm pretty much four inches taller than everyone else I race against.

2) I agree. I got some offline stick from [brand not stated] recently over that review of the Lightsignature GT because they said they had better paddlers than me to do testing against that board. I agreed and told them that I doubted any of those was a scientist and without that training, they were kind of missing the point and the skillset needed. It's all relative.

3) It's funny you feel that way. I could paddle a 21.5 at full power but only on glassy flatwater (and not in a large mass start race). I suspect with your skills you'd adapt easily but you'd have to put some time in. Personally, I consider 23 inches is my reasonable limit. Anything narrower than that will require a large amount of time just being able to handle the board, let alone maximise your ability on it. That's where a paddler has to judge what is a step too far. Funnily enough, I'm going through this with surfski's at the moment.

26

Flatwater and Touring / Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race

« on: March 27, 2019, 02:41:16 AM »

I agree that a lot of the information shared across the board, on FaceBook, or even on YouTube can sometimes be questionable.
- May I recommend that we START holding everyone accountable for providing false info?

However, aren't we sometimes to blame as well?

For instance, when someone says a board is very stable, don't just take it for granted. Ask them what they are comparing it to.

I have seen the same exact problems with Surfski paddling - and I am so glad that we came up with primary stability vs. secondary stability - in order to clarify a few things. It's gotten way better, with people actually telling you how a ski will feel compared to 3 or more surfskis.

I am still seeing (across the board) people downright lying about board or ski weight though. Are they removing fins / rudders / lines / pedals / handles / pads - BEFORE weighing?

In my opinion, we probably have 4 main categories:
- Untrusted people (people who aren't honest at all)
- Marketing bull (unfounded findings, or pulling stuff out of their A###)
- Accountable people (people who do their best to share their findings)
- US (us paddlers wanting to believe that a new 14x21.5 board is going to be as stable as an Allstar 14x25)

A lot of this issue in the past was because that people on forums and social media did not (or would not) disclose their affiliations or conflicts of interest. It doesn't seem too bad on here these days.

27

Flatwater and Touring / Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race

« on: March 26, 2019, 01:47:45 PM »

It's a no-brainer: more people will make the move.

I don't think so. The market, drivers and buzz are completely different between the two in my view. I just think paddlers will have a short shelf life in SUP whereas surfskiers are more like kayakers i.e. long term lifers not driven by fashion or fad. Surf skiing has been helped massively by boats like the Epic V8 (making it manageable) but since SUP's biggest market is inland based (with the coastal market being quite small), you'll more likely see ex-SUP paddlers try something completely different.

I agree with most of the above - and YES, the V8 was a splendid move from Epic that helped EVERYONE. The Nelo 520 followed years after, and between the V8 and 520, there were 1/2 a dozen "beginner skis" that were super appealing to get people into the sport.

I agree with your view on the two sports too, but with one more factor that IS INVOLVED:
Imagine a person who doesn't paddle...
That same person who goes and gets into SUP with a 11x30...
That same person who eventually progresses to a 14x25...
That same person who races...
And then that same person who gets a little tired of SUP Racing...

Well, I have seen it myself:
Individuals who have followed the above path (almost to the letter), and then have found themselves getting into (and purchasing) either an OC1 or a Surfski (and even sometimes both to end up with only a surfski at the end).

Get people involved into SUP - it's good for everyone (including the Surfski World).
Get people involved into Surfski - it's also good for everyone (including the SUP World).

Heck, getting more people involved into water sports could benefit many different markets - eventually. Getting more people playing video games "may not".

. The only way I could see surfski prosper massively would be if it developed inland with events and participation. Because it hasn’t means numbers will always be limited (in that sup downwinding or surf is in proportion to the rest of the sport). Funnily enough, I discussed with organisers how mass participation could work in the uk 3 or 4 years back and they weren’t interested. They preferred the high skill specialised nature of surf ski races. Fair enough. At least they know their identity.

28

Flatwater and Touring / Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race

« on: March 26, 2019, 08:23:47 AM »

I doubt that anyone is looking at the prices of these elite items and choosing their activity on the basis of the relative prices.

I agree.

29

Flatwater and Touring / Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race

« on: March 26, 2019, 08:21:38 AM »

It's a no-brainer: more people will make the move.

I don't think so. The market, drivers and buzz are completely different between the two in my view. I just think paddlers will have a short shelf life in SUP whereas surfskiers are more like kayakers i.e. long term lifers not driven by fashion or fad. Surf skiing has been helped massively by boats like the Epic V8 (making it manageable) but since SUP's biggest market is inland based (with the coastal market being quite small), you'll more likely see ex-SUP paddlers try something completely different.

30

Flatwater and Touring / Re: NELO is in for the games with Light Signature Race

« on: March 26, 2019, 05:46:11 AM »

If I recall correctly, the Nelo boards originally came out at 3450 euros.
After about 6 months, that price went up to 3600 euros.
Looking at the Lightcorp website again, I am now seeing 3695 euros, each.

I know first hand that it's not Lightcorp driving that price change, it's Starboard. We're nearly into 'halo' product territory soon - if we're not already.