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Messages - ukgm

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Boothy and Mocke are at or near the top because they incorporate strength training.  If they did not -> they would not be where they are.  ;)

We don't know that. You can't isolate the effect of one facet of training from another. I'm not saying that's the case here but sometimes training trends can be 'in spite of' not 'because of'. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to the garage to, er, lift some steel...........

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Gear Talk / Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« on: March 23, 2017, 03:32:45 AM »
(especially a flat water one) is created with the assumption that the board remains flat in the water. Each design will vary in how much efficiency it loses as it comes off its unweighted lateral plane. Some suffer remarkable rail steer, and/or an increase in drag. If you are a tall, heavy, power paddler then inaccuracies in your technique will be multiplied in terms of yaw relative to a lighter less powerful paddler. So the powerful paddler can find a loss of tracking and increased drag that far outweighs any theoretical advantage of a small drop in width. This can be compensated for, to a degree, but going wider and by other design differences.


On a related theme, for those interested, I have just been told that the 14ft 26 inch width Mistral Vortex flatwater board will (like its narrower brother) also be coming out soon in an 'XL' version and now rated upto paddlers 100kg in weight. If so, that stands out as a viable option for competitive (but) larger paddlers.

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"For endurance athletes, such as kayak/surfski paddlers, strength training provides an important physical counterbalance to the repetitious movements associated with the boat and paddle.While nothing can replace sport specific training for increased performance (you have to go paddling to become a faster paddler), supplementing with some weight training will make you a stronger, more complete athlete. This will ensure that you correct imbalances in muscle groups and strengthen the areas around your joints, which is vital for injury prevention."


This is key for me. If health issues aren't an issue, I wouldn't even start to think about strength work to improve SUP racing unless you're doing at least 6-7 hours training a week (and even that is low in endurance athlete terms).

4
Downwind and Racing / Re: What would you ask Michael Booth?
« on: March 22, 2017, 06:50:49 AM »
The coach of my sup training group has arranged for Michael Booth to give us a Skype sup clinic. To get the most out of it I want to make sure I have some good questions to ask the pro.

What would you ask him?

1) Whether he has ever been tested in a lab ?
2) What is his Vo2 max if he knows it.
3) Does he train with a structure ?
4) Does he perform strength training and what are his thoughts on it ?

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Gear Talk / Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« on: March 22, 2017, 04:54:21 AM »
At your height and weight I don't think you'll be any faster on a 14x25 than a 14x26. You might even be slower over a reasonable distance.

Purely out of curiosity, what makes you say that ? Increased wetted area in the wrong places or lack of stability ?
Those factors for sure. But first let's assume that you are tall enough that 1" narrower width makes negligible difference to how easy it is for you to execute your stroke properly. Then perhaps the main one (and linked to those) is how well you can keep your board on an even keel. This is something that Danny Ching (who has tended not to use uber-narrow boards) used to emphasise in the early days of race SUP but is rarely mentioned these days. A board design (especially a flat water one) is created with the assumption that the board remains flat in the water. Each design will vary in how much efficiency it loses as it comes off its unweighted lateral plane. Some suffer remarkable rail steer, and/or an increase in drag. If you are a tall, heavy, power paddler then inaccuracies in your technique will be multiplied in terms of yaw relative to a lighter less powerful paddler. So the powerful paddler can find a loss of tracking and increased drag that far outweighs any theoretical advantage of a small drop in width. This can be compensated for, to a degree, but going wider and by other design differences.

In general, I have a different emphasis than you do about where speed comes from, which probably reflects the fact that you compete at eg. cycling whereas I used to compete at swimming. pdxmike and UKRiversurfers for instance will know what I mean. In swimming, someone who used to be a fast competitive swimmer but has now gone to seed will always be faster than someone who is supremely fit but has never developed good technique. So, for me, I tend to look at technique and the way it interacts with the board as the easy way to increased speed, rather than emphasising so much aspects of fitness and strength as you guys have mainly been talking about (and yes, of course power at the blade captures some important aspects of technique, but technique is hugely more than that).

It is scary to see someone who is a skilled paddler from another discipline apply their feel for the water to SUP. They just seem to be able to extract speed from the water effortlessly, in a way that a much fitter stronger newbie will never do. SUP is an intensely technical sport IMO, far beyond that in cycling, running etc (whilst not denying that they have technique aspects also).

To my mind, the reason why Kai was able to kick ass at the ISA relays in 2016 was substantially that he was able to maintain impeccable technique that was perfectly matched to the conditions. Sure, he might be fitter also. But he probably leveraged his superior feel for the water that day, honed through thousands of hours in the water since he was a baby, combined with superb training and instruction from the likes of Dave Kalama. I think this is why the ocean guys generally do better in flat water than the flat water guys do in the ocean. They are used to thinking about how to maximise efficiency through the water, working with the conditions rather than fighting them. Just like in swimming.

Interesting thoughts.

(I should disclose at this point that I'm a former triathlete and competed internationally in surf lifesaving back in the 90's and early 00's. I started out as a swimmer).

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Gear Talk / Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« on: March 22, 2017, 12:52:41 AM »
At your height and weight I don't think you'll be any faster on a 14x25 than a 14x26. You might even be slower over a reasonable distance.

Purely out of curiosity, what makes you say that ? Increased wetted area in the wrong places or lack of stability ?

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Gear Talk / Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« on: March 21, 2017, 03:39:34 PM »
Yeah but with the All Star don't forget that it's all about that all-important built-in "porpoising" effect :) Probably if you are over 85kg you will be too heavy for it to "spring you forward like you have a motor on the back" :)

260L for 95kg is pushing it I'd say. Literally :)

So what you're saying is that I need a 200l custom then ?!
Funny. Actually, I reckon about 310L would be ideal for you.

Sorry, I meant 300L.  Mind you, in a 25 width, that's going to need some major foam.....

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Gear Talk / Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« on: March 21, 2017, 02:15:28 PM »
Yeah but with the All Star don't forget that it's all about that all-important built-in "porpoising" effect :) Probably if you are over 85kg you will be too heavy for it to "spring you forward like you have a motor on the back" :)

260L for 95kg is pushing it I'd say. Literally :)

So what you're saying is that I need a 200l custom then ?!

9
If you're not paddling at least 3-4 times a week, you're not going to be anywhere near your (age governed) best speed.

I also find that for us having a very full time job, it seriously gets in the way of paddling and paddling at your top most definitely.
I supplement week-end paddling with
* yoga, power and hata - great for chore and flexibility
* Foundation Training - helps built a strong base for a strong stroke
And case in point, I am still a crappy paddler....

Yep but all that matters is that you enjoy it. I still put in 12 hours training a week but that is split between bike, SUP and weights and I would be better at any of those if I got rid of the other two. The reality is that I have found ways to 'cheat' my training to get close to my best by cross training and that, these days for me, variety keeps me saner than being fastest in any one of those.

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Gear Talk / Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« on: March 21, 2017, 10:14:53 AM »
^ he said he calculated it from standard naval architecture formulas.

I found it very close to truth and it was an eye opener how much height affects stability.

I think the answer to that question is very board specific…

Agree. Less about volume and more about shape however. A low volume board can be more stable (see Bert Berger video explanations which I agree with).


With that in mind, why the discrepancies ?

You’re a cyclist. Do you really believe marketing fluff weights?


I'm more surprised that they don't go for much heavier weights than they advertise to appear to be more inclusive.

Take the Starboard Allstar 14ft 24.5 width at ~300 litres and they quote a max paddler weight of 85kg. Naish Javelin Maliko is only 260l and they quote 95kg paddler max. Fanatic don't mention one at all for their Strike (at 271l in a 26 width).


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ukgm - Without strength you cannot generate power.  What gzasinets says about strength is valid and what proper says about technique is valid.



Strength has to be developed in conjunction with the needs of the sport. Being able to squat or bench 200lbs isn't relevant when the actual force generated at a stroke rate of 40-60spm is so small and is done so in a completely different time window. Your limiter will likely be elsewhere first. Cycling and swimming has been through this debate many times over so unless SUP is uniquely different, I strongly disagree. The only reason rowers and sprint kayakers still do large amounts of weights is since their races are generally shorter and the development of top end power (and ensuring injury prevention and force application symmetry) is still a major part of their races characteristics. As the race gets longer, you've got to prioritize aerobic development. (this is not ignoring the age related needs you have highlighted and is a wise consideration in some cases).

I'm not saying weights isn't relevant. What I am saying is that frankly many paddlers would be better served for getting an extra paddle in than they would going to the gym and shunting some steel. If you're not paddling at least 3-4 times a week, you're not going to be anywhere near your (age governed) best speed.

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Yep.  Strength is one aspect.  But power application to the paddle blade propelling your board forward is key for sure.  If one wants to be more competitive and faster -> simply just drop kgs of fat and put on kgs of muscle mass.  Plus improve balance and endurance and nutrition blah blah blah.  Easy peasy really.  Just that most do not want to do this is all.  Or maybe cannot.  But weight is just a singular issue.  Strength and power and low BF really are important determinants.
This needs to be measured but if it's anything like swimming or cycling, it's not a strength issue as the applied forces are comparably small. Dropping excess weight is good but putting on excess muscle (for what is fundamentally an aerobic sport) is a bad idea.
Maybe you realize ukgm -> maybe you do not.  But it is extremely hard to put on muscle mass in middle age without putting on more fat mass.  You are only in your early 40s.  Really a youngster vs many others on this forum.  Sarcopenia has not yet ramped up for you.  Maybe not even middle age bulge.

As noted -> fat mass loss should be the primary goal with muscle mass retention.  So as to improve your strength to weight ratio.  This with heavy resistance training should improve your power to weight ratio if you do it right.  SUP specific and cross trained exercises blah blah blah.  Obviously.

Last year I lost an additional 1kg of fat mass and put on 1kg of muscle mass.  My weight stayed exactly the same but my DEXA body comp changed.  That was my goal last year and was achieved.  Adding another 5kgs of muscle would be nice with no more fat loss over the next few years.  Trust me on this ukgm -> it is very hard to put on only muscle mass in middle age.  ;)

Yep, I said I earlier I took your point and agreed with you. I would also say that it depends on background. If you haven't been doing weight training in your youth, its going to be virtually impossible to gain it significantly past 50. I recently took 5 years away from it, regretted it, and have now gone back to it (for the very reasons you mention).

However, I think some people are separately confusing this here as an endorsement for weight training as a means to improve general SUP paddling performance - irrespective of age. Whether it does or not has not been studied but there is plenty of other evidence out there of other related sports at elite level whereby it forms a very small part of the performance package and frankly, some people just need to train their fitness first. Being able to create more force, at a higher load, for around a 15 second stint is not going to make them race winners - its not specific enough to the needs of the sport.

Your options:

1) Strength training to deal with the effects of aging ? Yes.
2) Strength training to paddle a SUP faster ? May not be a high priority.

The key to paddling a SUP faster is training specificity. Identify your limiting factors (based on the events you do) and work on those as a priority.

13
I blame beer.

........ and in all seriousness, that's the great thing with being a weekend warrior. All things are not equal so you can maximise your advantages in a range of areas because the playing field is never level at amateur level. Lifestyle rules the roost.

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Gear Talk / Re: Race boards, prescribed paddle weights and volume.
« on: March 21, 2017, 06:20:55 AM »
I think the answer to that question is very board specific, for instance, how the volume is distributed throughout the shape. And as you pointed out, what's the optimal waterline for that board.

No matter the board shape, your weight will ultimately determine the exact board volume below the waterline.  Narrow and deep seems to be faster than wide and shallow these days.

Yep, I agree. It's quite a discrepancy though. I can understand it with a board with a boof nose. However, on some of the more traditional piercing nose designs, manufacturers seem to see things differently.

15
Kai was paddling 14% faster. I don't believe that Kai is 14% "fitter" than the other elite athletes, do you? A few percent maybe. But 14% is a MASSIVE margin, similar to the difference between a keen but strictly recreational paddler at a local race and the highly-trained semi-pro winner. Basically, he makes these other elite athletes look like amateurs. I don't think "he is fitter" is likely a good explanation. Maybe that would give him up to 5% but this is a difference in performance close to three times that.

Ukgm - you have no excuse now for not winning everything this season on your  Maliko. By your reckoning, it seems, if you don't it's just because you haven't worked hard enough at your fitness :)

14% faster doesn't mean that you need to be 14% fitter. You'll get similar gaps in other sports at Olympic level when the measured difference between something like vo2 max might well be within 3% or less. Sure, there are always other factors (things like the psychology or novel ideas like Noakes 'central governor' - in that some athletes can override their own mentally/physiologically established limits). Lets bear in mind that Arthur wasn't always in the direct draft and he kept up with Kai. Without knowing the power outputs, we just don't know.

As for me ? Well, in the races I have done well in, I can assure you I could always be faster (I'm only on year 3 in SUP and still improving - even at 41) and my technical abilities are by far my weakest area (I think I'm lazy in that department) but I do know that in the main, its my fitness load that is stopping me from being any more crap than I am !

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