Standup Zone Forum
Stand Up Paddle => Technique => Topic started by: seadart on March 22, 2017, 11:55:35 AM
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I moved to surfing a narrower, lower volume board (from a 10'6 150 L) and have slowly made progress to where I am fairly comfortable paddling in waves and taking off in surf on it. I took some Gopro movies of my attempts for the first time –and I really suck. One problem I noted is that I’m not getting my feet in the center of the board over the stringer but they are still in some hybrid staggered/surf position and I fall forward to the side a lot paddling for the take off. The nose is fairly narrow so that does not help. I know from experience that if I look at my feet I’m going to fall taking off. I don’t have a good sense of body awareness of where my feet are, they are just fighting for balance. We had some flat conditions for a few days and I spent a couple of sessions just trying to work my feet into a good surf stance in small increments, I’m doing better but suspect in choppy conditions it’s not going to work. I’ve seen videos where folks make a little hop to get both feet into position. I can’t get both feet unweighted and moved simulataneously on the grippy top on the tippy board to do this. Anybody have a suggestion on how to get to surf stance in the least number of increments without tipping the board? Right now I get into a staggered stance and then get low with bent knees, (goofy foot) so I reach out with the paddle on left side (it’s short) and paddle and brace as I turn my rear foot and slide it back and then step forward with my front foot trying to get it to the center of the board while the paddle stroke is still bracing. (I think my left foot wants to stay near the rail to help anticipate a bottom turn, and that makes my right foot want to stay on the right side of the stringer ) What am I doing wrong?
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Practice paddling in surf stance or semi-surf stance and then try paddling for the wave in surf stance. This way you are already in position when you catch the wave. Then just practice, practice, practice.
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I have switched from paddling in a semi-surf stance to the technique that was taught at the Nosara SUP Camp and it is working very well for me. Stay in a parallel stance while paddling for a wave with your feet about shoulder width apart. When you've caught the wave, pivot your forward foot on its heel to right angles with the centerline of the board while moving your back foot to the rear of the board. This will place both feet on center of the board. While doing this, lower your body and keep your front foot weighed more than you back foot.
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Hi seadart, I've just recently made a step down in my surfing SUP and I'm having to focus on my footwork a little more since the new board is much more sensitive. I find when I'm going for a wave I'll still be in a mostly square stance, slightly staggered by 1-2" on the new board if it is choppy. If the wave is a little flatter I might step forward 8" with one foot to get my weight forward and improve my chances of catching the wave. I'm regular stance normally and I do surf some waves goofy as well, but interestingly I step forward with the foot on the side opposite to the paddle so that I maintain an open face to the paddle rather than getting all crossed up.
If the wave is a bit steeper, I'll step back a little with one foot. Usually this will be my back foot for the surfing stance but sometimes it could be just the foot to maintain and nice paddling position.
In both cases I'm not stepping onto the center line of the board as my other foot stays over where it was.
Once I've felt I've caught the wave I will usually move my front foot into position first, over the center line and just as this foot is being placed, I'll move my other foot to the back, not always over the center line as it depends if I'm going down the line one way or the other, it'll be in position to go that direction.
Moving and planting your front foot first keeps your weight forward and your board on the wave. Moving back to set your back foot and then setting your front foot may have you drop off the back of the wave and/or sink the tail and make the board unstable and twitchy. I always try to plant my front foot and let the back foot move accordingly for turns. Of course if I need to, I walk up and down the board.
I don't hop into position as unweighting and then weighting the board unsettles it. I try to do one swift move for my front foot and then my back foot right after. A good time to do this is right as or a fraction before the board shoots down the wave, it naturally drops and you use that to shift your feet.
At least that is how i do it...
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You didn't give the specs of your new shorter board.
I paddle my 8'4 in a semi surf stance but but my feet are still well off to the side of what would be considered the stringer (Do any boards have stringers these days? lol) I don't use a particularly wide stance. My back toe lines up with my front heel. Front foot pointing straight ahead, back foot at a slight angle.
I learned a lot from Colas. He's talking really short boards here but his technique can be applied to any length board.
http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=15897.0
Once I've caught the wave I hop once or twice to get into full surf stance and put both feet on the centerline. Then I hop again to get to the tail if possible. These are very quick low hops pushing with your front foot, almost as if you are trying to shoot the board forward out from under you.
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The specs are definitely needed for the new board so a comparison can be made to the older board in order to better understand your new stance.
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Hi seadart
I usually recommend the "modified surf stance" to people looking for more stability when taking off on a wave.... and it works on all size boards.
Parallel stance doesn't give you enough "fore & aft" stability to handle the initial "pitch" in the wave face, before you gain speed (thus stability)
To get in the modified surf stance, simply slid your back foot about 4 to 6" behind your front foot.... then turn your toes out a bit toward the rail (pic #1)
This give decent "front to back" ----- and "side to side" stability as you paddle for a wave
When riding the wave, I try to keep my front foot near the centerline of the board, and my back foot closer to the rail.
Sometimes I have them both on the same side of the board.
If your feet are on opposite side of the board, they fight each other.... making turning hard.
I did a video to show footwork on a wave, to show where I place my feet to do different turns.
I'll add it here to show where you feet should be to turn most SUPs.....on really small SUPs, you can leave your back foot in the middle, but I find I need to move it on most of my boards.
Pics below vid show foot placement.... check them out before watching the vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-qB8_uZLuY
in flat-water, practice moving your feet, you will find that they will move without upsetting the board to much.
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I like the feet placement on the middle of the board photo. I started using this position last October. Works well.
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Hey All - Thanks for the pointers - lots to think about when I practice.
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I like to keep my front foot pointed forward--it gives me more ability to shift my weight forward or back without moving the front foot. If I feel the board bouncing around too much I know it's because my foot is cheating it's way closer to the rail--a natural desire for stability based on land experience that accomplishes exactly the opposite result on a surfboard. So I slide my foot closer to the stringer. I'm most comfortable with my big toe on one side of the stringer and my heel on the rail side, angled probably about 10 degrees.
My back foot goes wherever it needs to go. I like bigger boards, so I have to move my back foot to the turning rail to get the kind of turns I want. On a shorter board you can do this with knee bends or heel and toe pressure, but on wider or longer boards you have to move the foot.
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It may be interesting to note that Creek (Rick) often paddles on his heel side when going for a wave. He's the only one I know who does this. I've tried it and still can't figure out how he makes it work. For me the heel side paddle stoke is my weakest side. I get much more power and stability paddling on my toe side. I'll be the first to admit that my paddle stroke is not the most efficient and still needs practice.
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You guys are great...'great suggestions. I've had a helluva time making the transition. I must make really lousy wave selection because I frequently find myself either way too early (stroking like an idiot to catch up and missing) or looking down at the pit backing peddaling out of the drop. There are a few people who have it wired and can knock them off like walking along a fence with their hand out, so I know the wave is here.
My general foot placement is close to Creek's. My backfoot may be too straight by comparison, but I sense my wave is too fast for me, and/or I spent too much time outside -waiting for a softie- rather than committing to the waves-at-hand.
Many years ago when I could half-prone, it seemed I was mostly-always in the right position, albeit slow on the popup; my feet were properly set fore-n-aft. I was naturally leaning forward with my weight forward of center. Hell, for an IGOR, I had a good time. Not so much now. Length of the board does not seem to make much difference either.
Fricking water is too cold and I can't get away to try some new ideas, but Tom mentioned the Nosara Surf Camp. That young fellow has a tutorial on how to get up on a small board. I looked at that, and in my mind, it was like a hybrid takeoff, mix of prone and SUP. Could that place me properly? ..maybe. Badger mentioned Colas. He also has beachie waves. If I remember correctly, I rarely see him paddling for the wave, like most people, his vids show mostly the racy parts, not the pit work. (but I think I remember him leaning way forward toward the nose)
A major element one does not want to address is talent. One does not comfortably accept personal limitations... So, if Bobby Fisher beats your ass in three moves, an NFL linebacker stares you into a puddle of tears... the only good option is to get out the books and train to run like hell. I can't wait for the water to warm!
Jim
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Backing out of the fall to the pit might be part of your challenge. I catch myself doing that--a SUP is a much spookier perspective for that than prone. I force myself to commit and take any poundings. I get some beatings, but I also make a lot of those nasty looking "gotta be a closeout" waves that really aren't. Turning as you drop helps a lot, but mostly it's just making yourself go.
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Here's a great video from Erik at the Progression Project surfing a 6'10 @ 83 L L41. You can see how he uses a T-like stance when he paddles for waves (similar to Creek's picture above).
https://vimeo.com/199866862
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I like the way Erik mixes in casual turns, like slow carve building to a "whip" at the end.... very stylish and fun to watch.
Another thing that Erik does is flick his board away with his feet.
He takes the lip bouncing the board into him, out of the equation....a great way to stay safe.
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Another thing that Erik does is flick his board away with his feet.
He takes the lip bouncing the board into him, out of the equation....a great way to stay safe.
If you surf in California line-ups I don't recommend kicking the board away from you to ditch the board in the break .... not going to keep you safe from the prone boardies and not very diplomatic for the rest of us on SUPS.
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It may be interesting to note that Creek (Rick) often paddles on his heel side when going for a wave. He's the only one I know who does this. I've tried it and still can't figure out how he makes it work.
Ha! I'm a toe-side paddler for sure. In this clip, I was going to turn toward the toe side as usual, but the wave clearly called for me to paddle toward the heal side. I remember thinking as I approached the wave "this feels weird, but Creek swears by it". Clearly didn't work out too well for me!
https://youtu.be/SjDzfd-Z6lg
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@surfafrica
Just curious as always.
In the video, you seem to be on a long length board. If you don't me asking, what is the length of the board as well as the width of the board you were surfing?
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In the video, you seem to be on a long length board. If you don't me asking, what is the length of the board as well as the width of the board you were surfing?
That's my new 8'10 x 26.5, 84 L longboard. That clip was one of my first waves on it in surf bigger than waist high (hence the elegant nose dive at the end!).
Here's my review of it after my first week:
http://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,30640.msg349266.html#msg349266
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@surfafrica
In your video, it seemed your new Kronos was much longer than 8'10" and wider than (26.5"). The video gave me the impression your Kronos was at least a 10' or longer and I was guessing the width was much more than (26.5").
BTW, that was a nice review with a nice shot of the underside of your new Kronos in the link you provided. Do you have a link to where you got your new Kronos from?
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NW, if you watch the video again and imagine him laying prone on the board it should give you a better perspective of the board length.
I think the fact that the board is so narrow makes it look like a longer board.
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When I first saw the video, I didn't realize his 8'10" Kronos is just 1" shorter in length than my 8'11" Hammer. But my Hammer is 31" wide. The narrower 26.5" width of his Kronos sure did make his board seem longer to me.
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NW, I don't want to hijack this thread. I'll post board info in the review thread. But ya, with its width and me being a small guy, the board looks bigger than it is.
I joke about failing on the heel side paddle, but it is something I want to work on this year. I like to "paddle to the peak" when catching waves. I think having the option to confidently paddle on both sides into a wave would awesome. As of now, I'm way more confident on my toe side.
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I like the way Erik mixes in casual turns, like slow carve building to a "whip" at the end.... very stylish and fun to watch.
Another thing that Erik does is flick his board away with his feet.
He takes the lip bouncing the board into him, out of the equation....a great way to stay safe.
I agree on both counts. I really like his style. And maybe kicking your board away isn't a good idea at a busy break, but if there is nobody around, I'm a big fan of it too. I hate falling into the pit with my board churning nearby.
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As stated prior .... practice, practice and more practice. It will click for you. I do a surf stance, whether on the 7'7x27 or the 9'0x28 (nose rider SUP), when standing and waiting and when paddling for wave.
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While this is a few years old from around the time 9' boards were considered "small"...it did help me understand some of the nuances of the differences between "float" and "stability", and how I changed my foot placement, and preconceived volume "requirements" in order to go smaller, and smaller while still being able to paddle around comfortably without tiring myself out too fast, and shortening my sessions. Anyway, from Corran....
More volume = more stable... (in the traditional sense of course). Add volume and width and its even more stable. Instability comes from a rail diving down, the board sinking and then you loosing balance and falling off. Volume, and volume away from the center line, increases stability.
It takes 8lbs of pressure to sink one gallon of air. Lets assume for this purpose that your board is pure air (no material to make the foam as its close enough for this). If you weigh 200lbs, you need a MINIMUM of 100ltr in your board to have neutral floatation. This is just to float you with the very top of the board right at water level.
Now, stability is not the same as float, but they are related. Stability comes from the ability of the board to "push back" at you when you push down on it. at 100ltr, 50lts is on each side of the stringer. So it takes 100lbs of pressure (weight if you like) to push the right rail into the water. If you're standing centered on the board you're good. As you loose balance (lets say to the right) so you transfer more than 50% of your weight to that rail. Now you have more weight on the rail than the volume is able to push back against, and so it sinks. The more it sinks, the more you loose your balance, and the more weight you transfer onto that already sunk rail, and it sinks more... and more... until you either fall over, OR the "center" of the boards volume passes the 'tilt" point and it flips over (and then you fall).
However, its not that simple. Its not just about how much volume is on each side of the stringer. its also about how FAR it is from the stringer (moment arm), and how much of it is how far from the stringer.
If 70% of my right sides volume is within the first 6" of the board (measured away from the stringer) and only 30% is 15" from the stringer (on a 30" wide board), and I'm standing 10" away from the stringer, then my foot is already outside of the area that has the most foam/floatation. Therefore less pressure (weight) is required to sink the rail.
So... a board that has a lot of rocker, or a lot of outline curve, is going to have less volume out away from the stringer to push back at me than a board with wide ends, low rocker (low rocker engages that volume sooner as its already on the waters surface - rockered boards have a certain amount of the volume lifted out of the water and it only engages after the board starts to lean over). Boards with pinched rails and deck crown are going to have less volume to push back at you.
So... what does this mean?
A 25" wide 9' board that has wide ends and a flat deck with full rails and is 100ltr will be more stable than a 30" wide 9' board with dramatically pulled in ends and pinched rails that has 120ltrs.
But this is overly simplistic... standing height affects stability. For every 1/2" you move up, you need to add on average about 1" per side of width )this is dependent on rocker, width, outline and so on, but its about this) to have the same overall stability, so you get quickly reducing returns on increased volume from increased thickness. Also, as your board gets shorter, so you introduce a new dimension of instability -end to end sinking which compounds the side to side instability. As you get closer to the "critical" volume for your weight (you and board combined) so reduction in length has an exponential affect on overall stability, and thus moving more volume towards the ends of the board becomes paramount to maintaining that stability.
One solution is to stand closer to the stringer. While this puts you in a position of feeling like you're always "slightly wobbly", its also harder for you to put the kind of pressure on the rails that causes them to sink, as your weight is centered. Closer feet, kung fu style, will allow you to have much less instability as you're not pushing out on the rails. Pulled in ends, more rocker, pinched rails are all benefits of a tight standing stance as YOU loose YOUR moment-arm of pressure to push on the rails, and thus the board needs less of that moment-arm to push back.
Wide boards, wide ends, flat decks, full rails, low rocker ALL increase stability if you stand with a wide flat stance. The downside is a massive reduction in board performance. As your stance narrows, so you can quickly reduce volume, and more significantly, reduce how far that volume is located away from the central part of the board, and thus shape the board, with a view of more surfing in mind rather than paddling (stability) in mind.
Make sense?
Corran
Narrow stance lets you have a smaller, narrower more progressive shape overall.
Long story short...the closer you're able to keep your feet/weight to the centerline of your board, the more "volume" you have outside your COG to "push up" against any weight you start tipping to one side or the other, and thus the ability to make a lesser volumed board feel more stable.
Also, height is also a big deciding factor. So if/when you start feeling yourself tipping or losing your balance.....get down now! Lower your COG as quickly as possible, and you'll find yourself squatted down on your board, but at least on two feet still....in order to recover/regain your balance with your paddle ("outrigger"), then slowly stand, and continue off on your way again.
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"Closer feet, kung fu style, will allow you to have much less instability as you're not pushing out on the rails."
"Narrow stance lets you have a smaller, narrower more progressive shape overall."
"Long story short...the closer you're able to keep your feet/weight to the centerline of your board, the more "volume" you have outside your COG to "push up" against any weight..."
^ All valid for me as well. Especially beneficial on narrower boards like the AS23. Only time anywhere near the edge is angling cutting into a wave DW to maintain control.
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Took me a long time to learn that when you're feeling unstable, move your feet closer together. When I see newbs braced out with their feet on the rails I want to tell them what to do, but I know it won't work. The first time Dave Kalama told me to move my feet closer together I thought "easy for you to say".
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SanoSUp Thanks for that post from Corran, yup I have figured out that keeping your feet closer to the center of the board and keeping low is key. I've noticed watching the best SUP surfers and they all get their feet centered over the center line and very much in a " short boarder " stance. The spirit is willing but the flesh is week. I do notice I am gradually getting the hang of it, and just when I think I am going to break through we have a really choppy day and I am back to weeble-woble take offs. It's a lot more challenging than a long board but much bigger rush when you get it right.
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While sliding or jumping about, make sure your paddle is in the water engaged. This means either you're paddling even with short cadence strokes, or you're doing a sweeping brace, meaning sweeping the blade in a forward sweeping motion on the water surface hydroplaning with the leading edge up. Obviously if you're on a wave that momentum provides stability for easier footwork. And as one mentioned below, try a semi-surf staggered stance, so not 100% on stringer, more a mix of surf stance and paddling stance (flatwater stance).
Tips for the sweeping brace..
http://stokemagazine.blogspot.com/2016/10/stay-drier-with-sweeping-brace.html