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General Category => Gear Talk => Topic started by: Luc Benac on March 14, 2017, 08:20:43 PM

Title: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: Luc Benac on March 14, 2017, 08:20:43 PM
I started paddling an Ace-GT which has a fairly deep recessed deck probably about 3 inches from the waterline.
Outside of the Ace, I thing that the Sprint has a similar recessed deck.
The new NSP Ninja might also be similar.
Is there any other flat water sup that you know of with a  deck very low above the waterline?
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: supthecreek on March 14, 2017, 09:01:52 PM
This deep enough?  :)

Kelly Margetts winning an event at the Sydney SUP Cup on the new 14' Sunova Dugout, designed by Marcus Tardrew

Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: Luc Benac on March 14, 2017, 09:28:18 PM
Yes  :o I was not really thinking about the Ace's clones but rather at a flat water oriented design.
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: pdxmike on March 14, 2017, 10:44:56 PM
This Mistral Vortex looks like deck is pretty low:
(http://blog.easy-surfshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Seychelle.jpg)


Another (but I don't think really for pure flatwater) was the old Naish Catalina: 
(http://www.standupzone.com/bopgear5.jpg)


I think some of the recent fat-nosed boards have decks that are deceptively low--meaning it's not obviously low like the ones above where the deck is sunken way below the rails.  Imagine taking the Mistral (or a Starboard) and shaving the rails down to deck level, and you'd have a shape similar to several fat-nosed boards--bulbous in front, shallow behind, sort of like a regrettable plastic surgery.  I can't think of any specifically for flatwater, thought.
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: Area 10 on March 14, 2017, 11:05:24 PM
Well there is the original standup canoe: the K15.

Designers have tended to pair dugouts with pintails. This is fast, but compromises buoy turns. And since many flat water races are big on buoy turns, this would be a comprising feature. So what flat water racers probably need now is a narrow wide-tailed dugout with a displacement bow. I'm not sure we've seen one of this yet -?

It's a strange occurrence that dugouts have become more common for ocean boards than flat water ones IMO. It makes most sense to have a dugout in conditions where falls will be rare. If you fall in a tight race in a dugout, your chances of the finish you can be proud of paddle off to the horizon with the rest of the pack. Clambering back into a dugout is an undignified business.

Am I the only one thinking that the current move to dugouts resembles Jim Terrel's warning a few years ago that unregulated racing designs in regard to dugout depths and widths will lead to designs that look ugly and are too tricky for the average Joe and Joanna to paddle, and this will start limiting the appeal of racing and cause dwindling numbers? The videos of recent races look like the paddlers have legs that have been cut off below the knees. They look somehow weirdly short. It's not a flattering or aspirational look, it's a dorky look, to be brutally honest. Jim's thesis was that dorky-looking and difficult leads to an exodus of numbers.

But we've had this "boardsports vs. paddlesports" argument before, and there were passionate and reasoned arguments on both sides. So I probably shouldn't poke that hornet' nest.
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: GlideMarko on March 15, 2017, 12:41:22 AM
http://www.walkonwater.com.au/product/muon-140-brush-carbon-sup/

http://www.robertoriccidesigns.com/equipment/shop/razzle-dazzle-14-v1/

getting 2017 SB sprint 14x23 in few days... hua
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: ukgm on March 15, 2017, 01:59:35 AM
I started paddling an Ace-GT which has a fairly deep recessed deck probably about 3 inches from the waterline.
Outside of the Ace, I thing that the Sprint has a similar recessed deck.
The new NSP Ninja might also be similar.
Is there any other flat water sup that you know of with a  deck very low above the waterline?

The question is, do you go for a dugout (SB, RRD, etc) or do you go for an open deck where you can have a wider stance to increase stability that way ? (i.e. Fanatic Strike, JP) ?
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: GlideMarko on March 15, 2017, 02:36:02 AM
Also,
The question regarding stability : dugout (with lower standing position but narrower) or open deck (with higher standing position but wider) on the same length/wide board.
I will compare 2016 SB AllStar (14x23) vs 2017 SB Sprint (14x23) in a few days.
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: yugi on March 15, 2017, 03:20:03 AM
...
Another (but I don't think really for pure flatwater) was the old Naish Catalina: 
(http://www.standupzone.com/bopgear5.jpg)
...

I know that board well. Very fast on flat. OK for v light downbreeze. A nightmare in chop.

I heard Robby didn't like that twitchyness and yanked it. Are we witnessing a comeback now we all got better?

I find it very hard to see the shape of Roberto Ricci's Razzle Dazzle with that color scheme. It sure is recognizable on the water, but not pretty.
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: ukgm on March 15, 2017, 05:01:11 AM
...
Another (but I don't think really for pure flatwater) was the old Naish Catalina: 
(http://www.standupzone.com/bopgear5.jpg)
...

I know that board well. Very fast on flat. OK for v light downbreeze. A nightmare in chop.

I heard Robby didn't like that twitchyness and yanked it. Are we witnessing a comeback now we all got better?

I find it very hard to see the shape of Roberto Ricci's Razzle Dazzle with that color scheme. It sure is recognizable on the water, but not pretty.

I love the look at the RRD. Reminds me of automotive concept cars using urban camoflage to confuse the journalists. It looks a lot like an older starboard sprint and there is littl information about it - even on their own website.
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: yugi on March 15, 2017, 07:22:15 AM
^ oh wow   :o

A friend has one (spancered). He's fast. Then again he'd be fast on anything.
He does like it and has no complaints. Uses it for downwinds too.
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: Luc Benac on March 15, 2017, 07:51:25 AM
I started paddling an Ace-GT which has a fairly deep recessed deck probably about 3 inches from the waterline.
Outside of the Ace, I thing that the Sprint has a similar recessed deck.
The new NSP Ninja might also be similar.
Is there any other flat water sup that you know of with a  deck very low above the waterline?

The question is, do you go for a dugout (SB, RRD, etc) or do you go for an open deck where you can have a wider stance to increase stability that way ? (i.e. Fanatic Strike, JP) ?

I was modestly thinking both :-)
i.e. I would be curious to try a 2014 Sprint 14' x 26" and if it actually feels any different to paddling the Ace-GT (or the BF 14x26 which it should been totally different designs)
I think that I have established that 26" is the "right" comfortable width for me in the sense that while I can paddle something narrower I am starting to give a lot more credence to comfort and enjoyment. I had forgotten how nice paddling when you are low on the water is. The BF is fairly good at under 5" in the standing area and the BF 26" is staying with me period.
The BF 24" is plenty stable and I do not go in the water. It is fun when wanting a challenging paddle or on flat water but there is just something about narrow that does not work for me and keeping a board just for the odd days when wanting a challenging paddle is a little bit of a waste.
I do not race and the only races I "participate" in do not include buoy turns but distance over 7km. And my participation is mainly a chance to share some time with paddlers friends.
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: ukgm on March 15, 2017, 08:00:05 AM
^ oh wow   :o

A friend has one (spancered). He's fast. Then again he'd be fast on anything.
He does like it and has no complaints. Uses it for downwinds too.

The website says the 25 width is 280 litres. That's ideal for bigger paddlers.
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: yugi on March 15, 2017, 08:04:09 AM
They are quite thick.

Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: ukgm on March 15, 2017, 09:00:10 AM
They are quite thick.

I've never seen one in the flesh. Has anyone paddled one ?
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: yugi on March 15, 2017, 09:40:00 AM
yes, but not extensively.

It feels like the narrow displacement race board that it is. I don't really like it because I don't like narrow displacement race boards, or its looks.

Two (spancered) riders I know do like them, they seem quick enough.

RRD do really really nice sailboards. I expect they'll pick up their SUP game.
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: pdxmike on March 15, 2017, 11:07:58 AM

I know that board well. Very fast on flat. OK for v light downbreeze. A nightmare in chop.

I heard Robby didn't like that twitchyness and yanked it. Are we witnessing a comeback now we all got better?

I never paddled one, but I was at a Naish demo and I noticed the Naish guy had one in his van, so I asked him if I could try it.  These aren't his exact words, because he was more polite, but his response was along the lines of, "Trust me, it's so unlikely you'll like it that it's not worth the effort of pulling it out of the van."
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: yugi on March 15, 2017, 12:05:41 PM
^ hahahaha   good guy. I like an honest rep.

So I finally convinced my buddy who lives on the other side of the lake to sell it (he never wanted to come out and SUP when it was choppy). Then guess where it shows up? On the same rack where I have my board stowed. Now I'm friends w the new owner so I'm still always on it. I'll never get away from the thing!

I have to admit it's a great measure of my progress. I hate it less and less. I actually do Ok on it now. I'm even attempting buoy turns on it and feel a need to wax the back deck. My new buddy is very good. It really kicked his ass and he's doing really well.

I think so it goes with most flatwater boards with recessed deck, or at least I get that impression. The deeply recessed deck is a probable sign it's compensating for something.





Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: blackeye on March 15, 2017, 11:02:41 PM
I never paddled one, but I was at a Naish demo and I noticed the Naish guy had one in his van, so I asked him if I could try it.  These aren't his exact words, because he was more polite, but his response was along the lines of, "Trust me, it's so unlikely you'll like it that it's not worth the effort of pulling it out of the van."
More experts telling me what I'd like and what I wouldn't like. If you could learn something interesting from a difficult board, we'd all be better off. Experience denied. (Other cranky comments deleted.)
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: ukgm on March 16, 2017, 01:43:46 AM
yes, but not extensively.

It feels like the narrow displacement race board that it is. I don't really like it because I don't like narrow displacement race boards, or its looks.

Two (spancered) riders I know do like them, they seem quick enough.

RRD do really really nice sailboards. I expect they'll pick up their SUP game.

Maybe the 2015 Starboard Sprint in a 25 width with its added hard concave underneath was a good compromise for everyone. A shame they stopped making that board.
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: Luc Benac on March 16, 2017, 05:38:44 AM
yes, but not extensively.

It feels like the narrow displacement race board that it is. I don't really like it because I don't like narrow displacement race boards, or its looks.

Two (spancered) riders I know do like them, they seem quick enough.

RRD do really really nice sailboards. I expect they'll pick up their SUP game.

Maybe the 2015 Starboard Sprint in a 25 width with its added hard concave underneath was a good compromise for everyone. A shame they stopped making that board.

Was it made in 25", the only ones I have seen were 23".
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: ukgm on March 16, 2017, 10:05:20 AM
yes, but not extensively.

It feels like the narrow displacement race board that it is. I don't really like it because I don't like narrow displacement race boards, or its looks.

Two (spancered) riders I know do like them, they seem quick enough.

RRD do really really nice sailboards. I expect they'll pick up their SUP game.

I thought there was a 25. I may be wrong. Either way, they've pushed their flatwater boards to widths and volumes beyond those of a reasonable build and mass. If I go back to such a design, I'll be going to a custom shaper.

Maybe the 2015 Starboard Sprint in a 25 width with its added hard concave underneath was a good compromise for everyone. A shame they stopped making that board.

Was it made in 25", the only ones I have seen were 23".
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: Luc Benac on March 16, 2017, 10:13:50 AM
The widest one I know of are the 2014 models.
26" wide like yours (before your modifications and improvements :-) )
28" wide
Then (according to literature, Rozier's video and what I have seen around in 2015), they went to 23" only.
it was supposed to replace the 2014 both 24" and 26" wide.
In SB's words it was faster than the 24" and "more stable" than the 26" wide thus removing the need of a wider model.....
A more "relaxed" version of the 2015 in 26" would likely have been of interest to me.
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: Eagle on March 16, 2017, 01:33:02 PM
Yeah - looks like what SB did in 2015 was have 3 options.

1     Sprint 14x23 for flat water
2     Race 14x25 and 27 for all water
3     All Star 14x23 plus 25 and 28 for surf/downwind

Did try the 2015 Race 25 and it was extremely tippy.  Could balance on it just barely -> and could only put down very weak power say 15%.  Comparatively the 2016 AS23 is more stable by a substantial margin -> and could put down good sprint power say 85% during my first demo.  So can see why the Race was dropped completely and replaced with the AS25 plus 27 and 28.  Based on 2016 results the AS 23 and 25 did fine.
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: ukgm on March 16, 2017, 02:43:43 PM
The widest one I know of are the 2014 models.
26" wide like yours (before your modifications and improvements :-) )
28" wide
Then (according to literature, Rozier's video and what I have seen around in 2015), they went to 23" only.
it was supposed to replace the 2014 both 24" and 26" wide.
In SB's words it was faster than the 24" and "more stable" than the 26" wide thus removing the need of a wider model.....
A more "relaxed" version of the 2015 in 26" would likely have been of interest to me.

Ah, makes sense. I'm looking for a donor board for a winter 2017 flatwater garage mod project but there isn't much around when you're 94kg....
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: supthecreek on March 19, 2017, 01:53:42 PM
Luc Benac

I just saw this board for the first time today when Tino emailed me pics, and thought of you.... nice recess and the wide tail looks fairly stable.
Plus they generally offer different widths on all their models.

I'll put up a few pics since they are the 1st ones anywhere of this new design.

Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: Luc Benac on March 19, 2017, 03:47:30 PM
Luc Benac
I just saw this board for the first time today when Tino emailed me pics, and thought of you.... nice recess and the wide tail looks fairly stable.
Plus they generally offer different widths on all their models.
I'll put up a few pics since they are the 1st ones anywhere of this new design.

Thanks. Looks nice. What is the model/name - I guess Faast Pro. Does it comes in 26" instead of 23.5, maybe the Faast Non-Pr?
We have a new Sunova distributor in our courtyard....
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: ukgm on March 20, 2017, 03:46:06 AM
Luc Benac
I just saw this board for the first time today when Tino emailed me pics, and thought of you.... nice recess and the wide tail looks fairly stable.
Plus they generally offer different widths on all their models.
I'll put up a few pics since they are the 1st ones anywhere of this new design.

Thanks. Looks nice. What is the model/name - I guess Faast Pro. Does it comes in 26" instead of 23.5, maybe the Faast Non-Pr?
We have a new Sunova distributor in our courtyard....

I haven't seen any in the UK but the new ONE boards look good too.
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: Muskoka SUP on March 20, 2017, 04:14:01 AM
Luc Benac
I just saw this board for the first time today when Tino emailed me pics, and thought of you.... nice recess and the wide tail looks fairly stable.
Plus they generally offer different widths on all their models.
I'll put up a few pics since they are the 1st ones anywhere of this new design.

Thanks. Looks nice. What is the model/name - I guess Faast Pro. Does it comes in 26" instead of 23.5, maybe the Faast Non-Pr?
We have a new Sunova distributor in our courtyard....

I haven't seen any in the UK but the new ONE boards look good too.
I've been in Aus the last three weeks and have seen the entire range except for the 17's.  All very nice looking, and fairly priced. 
Title: Re: Flat water board with deep recessed deck
Post by: Luc Benac on March 20, 2017, 07:31:58 AM
We are getting both ONE and Sunova locally this coming year are both distributors are here.
So in a couple of years there should be a small local second hand market :-)